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A Blueprint for Patient-Centered Growth

Summary:

Patient-centered care, strategic growth, and community impact are redefining success in dental practice. 

In this episode of the Secure Dental Podcast, Dr. Jonathan Theis, the Full Arch Coach and President and Co-Founder of Smile Score Solutions, shares how he built and expanded successful, patient-centered Full Arch dental practices by using strategic business models, innovative patient financing solutions, and collaborative buying power for private practitioners. He developed the Full Arch Buying Group (FABG) to empower private practice dentists by giving them the purchasing power of larger corporations while preserving a patient-centered approach. Dr. Theis talked about his humanitarian initiative, Orcaa, and how it addresses severe dental care shortages in Guatemala by training local surgeons in advanced implant techniques, and improving access for underserved populations. Within the conversation, he also discusses upcoming projects, such as Smile Score Solutions, a credit-improvement platform for patients denied financing, and software solutions to streamline operations and enhance data retention in implant-focused practices.

Tune in to uncover the strategies driving modern dental practice success, from patient-focused care to innovative growth and community transformation! 

 

Secure Dental - Jonathan Theis: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental - Jonathan Theis: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
All right. Hey, everybody, welcome.

Dr. Noel Liu:
To another episode of our Secure Dental podcast, where we bring in many different talents from inside and outside our industry. Today, I have a very special guest, Dr. Jonathan Theis. Now, before we dive into it, I just want to give a shout out to my sponsor, which is DentVia. It's a virtual dental administration assistant company that does all the back end office tasks to supercharge our front desk, So definitely visit them at DentVia.com. That's for DentVia.com. Now, without further ado, the introduction to this man. One thing that really caught my eye with this bio was he's an entrepreneur, a true dental entrepreneur. He has multiple expertise and experience in private practice as well as DSO space, and now he runs a group called Full Arch Buying Group. Dr. Jonathan, man, there's not enough things to say about you. Why don't you give your intro? Because you are probably the perfect person to tell us exactly what you're doing and how we got started here.

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Sure, man, I was in, I graduated from Temple 2009, came out, I did private practice for about nine years, actually practicing clinically. Started my own practice in 2014. It was a, it was your startup. Like I bought a dump, it was cheap, and I turned it around. I worked really hard. I learned a ton about the business side of owning a practice, and I was able to turn that thing around in a couple of years and make it profitable and successful. And then, from there, I partnered with a lot of my best friends who were also dentists, and we created a group. And in 2018, I took over that group. I had the opportunity to take the reins and run it, and it was something I was always interested in. I've always had that entrepreneurial spirit from the business side of things, and I was able to take that group over, and we had on the back of the discovery of the Full Arch model and just learning a ton and putting into play stuff that successful groups that I learned about were doing. I didn't reinvent the wheel in any way. I basically looked at what are other successful groups doing, and I put those things into play in ours, but where it made sense and we turned that thing into being very successful. And from there we ended up getting purchased by private equity. And that was in 2020. And so then we were part of a large group, 85 offices. I was the VP of operations overseeing Pennsylvania as well as the regional clinical director over at Pennsylvania. So I had a couple hats on while I was there. And after about a year of integration where whenever they join all these offices together, they've got to get everybody using the same suppliers, using the same management systems. Everything has to be integrated. And so that took about a year to get the PMS, everyone on the same PMS, everyone doing the same thing. And then, from there, they turn their focus to our Full Arch business that we created a subdivision called Smart Arches Dental Implants with my business partner, Dr. Simon Oh. And so we co-founded this what we intended to be a national brand for Full Arch, and implant-focused offices, and I believe they're now at about nine offices. And so I had lots of experience from my the first one we did, we, it was like a failing office. And that was Dr. Oh's office, and we took it and turned it into an implant and Full Arch focused office. And within about two years, it went from about half a million to 5 million. And so it was just explosive growth. And we were like, wow, this is amazing. And so we started doing that at another office that was a de novo of ours that was like on the other side of Philadelphia. And that that was already doing about 800, some thousand. It was pretty successful de novo. We started adding in Full Arch, and that went to 3 million. So, pretty quickly. And so that was very successful. So from there, we started to, we added it to another office, and then we started to do De Novos where we were taking offices that either building up brand new offices or taking closed offices and just redoing them and opening them up, rebranding them and opening them as smart arches. And so I was involved in all of that. So I got to see it from every level and be involved in creating all that I created all the operations. I created the sales department and helped guide them. And then, as time went on, my vision for things didn't really align with where they were going. And I'm not a big fan when it comes down to it of DSOs. I believe they're a little bit more profit-driven and not as patient care-focused. And as a doctor, I was looking at a vision that was more patient care-focused, and I sold my shares. I separated from them, and I rekindled my entrepreneurial spirit, and that's when I decided to create the Full Arch Buying group to put the power back into the hands of the private practice doctors and help them get the same type of negotiating power that these large groups have. That's where all this idea born from.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, I love it. I want to dive into a little bit about like, how you took that $500,000 office turning into a $5 million office. What were some of the challenges or some of the wins if somebody were to take, let's say, a private practice, and we have a lot of doctors looking into making Full Arch centers, including myself? So what would you give as an advice, like some of the pitfalls to watch for and some of the wins that you really need to go and hunt down?

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Sure. So the way that it all started was this office was, I think, doing about, oh, I think it was like 430,000 or 450,000. We were losing a lot of money. I think it was 80,000 a quarter we were losing. And so at the time, what we were doing was we had 11 offices and we were looking at we only had we didn't have a lot of capital to invest. And because we were our company at the time, we were struggling and when I took it over and so we didn't have good credit to borrow, we didn't have a lot of free capital. I was, what I was doing was we were shrinking to grow. So I was looking to cut the loser offices so that we could take our profits and reinvest them in the offices that were doing well so that we could maximize what we had without overextending ourselves and having to pay for some of the offices that were losing money. So I and we had turned our attention to doctor office in Langhorne. At the time, he was a part-time doctor there, and it was losing a lot of money. And he was like, we were at a partners meeting and he had said, hey, before we close this down, I think that there's potential here. But if we turn our focus to Full Arch, I think that's where I see the potential in this. And he was a partner, and I respected his opinion, and we together decided, okay, let's give that a shot. And so we started to just do some light marketing and kind of we did some mailers and we started doing some Facebook marketing. And when you're a $450,000 office, and that means you're doing like 40, 50, 30, 40,000 a month in production, it's pretty low. And so you start, you get a couple cases a month, a couple arches at $20,000, $30,000, and all of a sudden, like, you've tripled your revenue. We're like, Holy cow. So within the first couple of months, we were like, this is amazing. We've tripled our revenue and some of the things we went through, all the difficulties figuring this out. We had to retrain the staff on the workflow. He was it was a tiny little office. So we had to really focus on our systems and where the patients were going to be at the office when and like we were bringing in third-party anesthesia. So figuring out like when we could schedule them. And one of the other difficulties that can happen at the time that we were lucky enough to have a connection to, was we had a really great lab tech who would come to our office and he would convert all the cases. Okay. And so that because we were analog.

Dr. Noel Liu:
The digital age, right?

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Oh, yeah. This was, yeah. So we were, we first start off, you don't even know if it's going to work. You don't even know if it's going to be viable. So you're not going to invest in a full digital workflow on something you're not sure if you're even going to do. So we started off doing analog figuring out that way, which actually I think is, I think it's always good to know where you came from first, like the basics and how to do all that gives you a great understanding when you do go to digital of exactly where that technology comes from. It's like learning how to do a full hand map and then understanding, yeah, understanding why the calculator is so nice. But as we grew. So one of the things that I did that I think was unique was when we did our Facebook marketing, I actually did all of the messaging myself. Okay. And so we would have ads, and I would be I'm working, and I'm all over the place, but I always have my phone with me. And every time a message would come in on Facebook Messenger from one of our ads, I would answer it. And an advantage because you've got a doctor answering all the messages. And I was Johnny on the spot, which I think gave us an advantage to anyone out there that was in the area because these patients were clicking on the ad, and they were immediately getting responses, and they were getting responses from a doctor. And so because of that, I was able to drive these patients into the office. And then we started using, yeah, and then we started to use a marketing agency as well. And so as we started to grow, one of the big bottlenecks that we found was anesthesia. Dr. Oh, is actually a general practitioner, and but he's trained in oral surgery, and his belief was the best thing for the patient is to have proper airway during these procedures. And the only way to really do that is with general anesthesia. So we used a third party, and we would bring in anesthesiologists into the office, and they would bring, and the company that we used was actually really nice. They would bring everything. And the only thing we needed to supply was the oxygen. So that was really nice. And what we would do is we would charge the patient for the anesthesia. And because we were trying to be very competitive, we would just charge it as a break-even for us, we just because we wanted to keep the price down as low as possible. And I think one of the other things that we did, in the beginning, was just to get reps for Dr. Oh to get his name out there. I think we were probably not, we were probably not super profitable with the procedure in the beginning. We kept it very low. I think when we were doing it back in 2018, we were charging like 14,000 to 15,000 an arch. And with analog, what's even more expensive, yes, than it is with digital. And so the profits probably weren't great, but because we were so well priced, we were getting flooded with patients. And what we did was we started to utilize that through social media with testimonials, started building authority, and pretty soon patients were coming in not because of our ads, but because they just had heard about us. They started to see us organically through social media or word of mouth. And so as we started to get demand, then we could raise our price a little bit and we would slowly raise our price over time as we became the place to go in the area. Then, we could get ourselves aligned with a proper business model that was actually profitable. But we used that, that drawer in the beginning to really bring those patients in. And that really helped Dr. Oh get a ton of reps so that he was very proficient. You know what I mean? And then one of the other things that we noticed is in the beginning, we had to turn some patients away. They had severely atrophied backs. And we, Dr. Oh didn't have to do those cases yet. So he went down to Brazil. He was trained on zygotes. And then when he came back, and we started to do those, and then as he took more education and really started to become proficient with Zygomas. Now, every case was coming to, we could do, and not only that, but he was starting to get known as the zygote doc. And actually oral surgeons were sending their cases to Dr. Oh, but they didn't want to do that. Yeah, some of the most complicated cases. And so now we're not only getting word of mouth and getting from our marketing, but also getting referrals. And so, these are the things I talk about to docs that are Full Arch. Like it's very competitive, and so you need multiple ways, supplementary ways of getting your patients besides just your marketing. You can't expect to just dump market money in the marketing and and be able to reach your goals. So you want to look to have set up referral networks, right? So what we used to do was we would send our GP patients to doctors. When they would come in, they didn't need that much and say, hey, we're an implant-focused office. We're not looking to do like ... filling that is in a cleaning. So, those doctors in our network around the area, they would get new patients from us. And then, in exchange, when they saw a patient with dentures that was struggling or anything like that, they would send them to us. And so now we've created a referral network as well as a marketing network. And then you eventually, as you build your authority, you're getting that word of mouth more satisfied patients. And that's what really built us up over time from doing starting out at 2 or 3 arches, building up to ten to eventually get into 30, 40 arches above.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So tell me something. I know Dr. Oh is pretty quiet. How important is it when you guys are closing sales or closing patients? Like, is he the one who's, like, actually interacting with patients, or were you the one or did you have somebody else, like a treatment coordinator? Because I feel like the doctor really needs to have very well-oiled communication with their patients. What, do you have any insights on that part?

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Sure. It's, it all matters, right? It's all about the process and how that patient feels from the moment they're contacted all the way through. But for instance, on the doctor's side, it's very, what we did was we built a lot of authority and familiarity. The patients would see them over and over again, whether it's providing education to them. Teaching them about implants. Teaching them about Full Arch via these videos that we would make and put out on social media and we would use as ads as well, just free education, but then also the patient testimonials and things like this. And so when the patients would come into the office, it was so funny. They would, you, it would be like, oh my God, it's you. Like I've seen your like it was like a celebrity type of thing. So we're already winning by the time the patient even sees the doc. And so now all he needs to do is go in. And one of the things that we did was we would take an extremely thorough medical history. And the reason we did that was one, because that's the best thing to do for a patient that's going to be going under major surgery, right? You have to have that. But two, when a patient goes to a normal dentist, it's pretty hard to fill out this form. There's not a lot of questions asked. And so that really they knew when they were being asked that all those questions by the doctors, oh man, this is different. This is something else here. And that really makes an impression on them. And then, of course, the doctor's ability to connect with the patient. And so not every doctor is the same in their charisma and their ability to connect, but that you can make up for that by your preparation of the doctor. We didn't let the doctor in there 20, 30 minutes talking to the patient. That's not productive. But at the same time, we've got to create that emotional connection to that patient so that they want to move forward. And so the best way to do that is to make sure that doctor is well prepared beforehand. What we would do is our sales consultant would do a discovery portion of the sales process ahead of time, collecting all that data. And then when about the patient, the personal things and especially like things like why they're in there in the first place as far as do they have a special event coming up, a wedding? Things like that that they're really like that's pushing them to this goal. And so then when you review the CBCT with the doc, and you go over everything about the patient that we've learned, he goes in there fully armed and able to shorten that time span. Now he's not asking all of these questions and doing discovery himself. He's going in and immediately knows the points of emotion to hit on, to really get that patient to connect to him. And so that's where he can be efficient with his time, but really still get that connection to that patient so that when they get done, they feel very good about the office that they've chosen and they're, and as long as finances are in line, they're able they want to move forward.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Man, you just dropped like several bombs over here. That's awesome. These are some golden nuggets which, I think, like anybody and everybody, should listen to and get a takeaway from this. So that's great, man. I love it, I love it. So, let's switch gears a little bit. Let's go to ... What's Orcaa and.

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Yeah, man. So Orcaa was, we had an opportunity and I was I got in after it was discovered. So, the founders are Dr. Eldad Drori and Dr. Simon. They're the first ones that had connections down in Guatemala. People that he knew down there. And he brought Simon in because there was this huge humanitarian need down there. One of the crazy and surprising things is there's such a lack of access to care down in Guatemala, in the remote villages, that it's actually common practice for families to bring their 15-year-old daughters and sons into the city and as a gift, have their teeth removed and fitted for dentures at 15, if you can believe that. And that's considered a gift, because if they get infections and anything like that as they age. There's so little access to care. It could be life-threatening, and it just causes misery for them. And so that's their solution, and it's looked at as a gift. And so there were so many people down in Guatemala that had done this. And there was decades of maxillary resorption and just the inability to chew their indentures. The dentures don't fit them. They're suffering. And that's just the way of life for them. And it's horrible. And so we really saw an opportunity down there because they had not been trained on these remote anchorage techniques like your pterygoids and your zygomatic. So the first thing that Dr. Oh did was he went down there, and he trained all their top surgeons at the University of Guatemala on how to do zygomatic. That was the first step. And then also on how to take care of and handle complications post-surgery for these patients, Setting them up to be able to take care of their own people. Okay. But because there's such a huge volume, could, you know, he also wanted to help these people. And so we, and we also saw an opportunity to help spread knowledge, and across the globe really of this of these techniques to help people all around the world. And so we said it was, Orcaa was created, and we partnered with University of Guatemala so that we can bring doctors from all over the globe to train and learn these remote anchorage techniques so they can go back to their country, their office, and help their patients, but then also at the same time to be to help a ton of people in desperate need down in Guatemala. So it's really just like this perfect storm that created this really wonderful event. And it's extremely fulfilling. It's all about the very top people in the industry all meeting down at the University of Guatemala, which is actually an, it's actually a really nice facility, top of the line. I went in there; I was like, this is nicer than my dental school. I was blown away. We do the, we, these and these patients are all level three ones for zygotes are done under general anesthesia in the OR, so it's in the very best setting possible, and we've got very best faculty. And it's really it's like 2 to 1 ratio. So you've got two trainees and one surgeon, one faculty member overseeing them the whole time, and one is doing the surgery and one is assisting. And then they switch out on the second case and it's just huge volume. So we're doing 50 plus cases in that one week that we're there, or 50 plus arches about usually about between 30 and 40 patients we see in that one week. And we are changing so many lives down there, and it's just tremendous.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So each participant is probably getting, what, about 5, 4 to 5 arches?

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Yes, exactly. So it depends on their experience. So we've got a level two and a level three. The level three is your remote anchorage. That's going to be your advanced surgical techniques. And then level two is your conventional Full Arch training. And within each of those, there's different levels too. So like, for instance, the conventional Full Arch, you could be a newbie who's placed maybe 300 or 400 implants, and maybe you're just getting into it, and you've tried a few cases, and you've done a few cases under your belt, but you want to get proficient and they come into the course. And with those, we pair them up with someone of similar experience, and then they're given particular cases that are like home run cases, right? So that they can just practice on getting proficient and learning from the very best on how to approach those cases. And then within level two, there's also docs that have maybe done 30, 40, 50 arches, right? But they want to get better. And also, anytime we're doing a maxilla in level two, we always do what's best for the patients and play centers, and creating that AP spread is always ideal unless it's contraindicated. We're placing pterygoids on any maxilla that we're doing in level two, and if the participants are ready for that, if the faculty deems them ready for that, then they'll be trained on pterygoids in level two. So, the level of advancement depends on your experience in level two. And then, of course, in level three, we're seeing we're doing a lot of maxilla, mostly maxilla, because we're training them on zygotes and ... and trans nasals. And you're seeing and that even within that, you've got your standard place of two zygotes to the most advanced cases where you've got quad zygotes and severely atrophic maxilla, and patients with complicated health histories and other issues going on. And this really gets you ready to be able to treat any patient that walks in the door at your private practice.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I don't think I've heard of any other course that offers this kind of like comprehensive training.

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Yeah, I think it's unique in that way. The volume, the quality of the faculty. But I, and I think the big factor there is that in Guatemala there's such a need for it. And because of that situation that I told you about, with so many people not having to teach for so many years, we end up getting so many cases that this is like the best place where you could find the most difficult cases to train doctors along with people that really need it. There's no overdiagnosing here. It's so many people need this that they're there, and they need their help.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And is that still the case right now, currently as we speak with 15 year olds?

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And we're even doing other cases, too. We do charity cases there as well where people come in with huge, mild blastoma, and we bring in microvascular surgeons and fly a man down there. And we're resectioning jaws and using the tibia and reforming the entire jaw. And those aren't ones that we're training on. Those are just. We're just, we're trying to help as many people down there as we can. Yeah, and we've recently added an advanced prosthetic digital workflow training course to this that runs coinciding. So you've got the surgeries going on, and alongside that, you've got an advanced prosthetic course that's training doctors on how to plan these cases, what proper records need to be taken, how to troubleshoot occlusion, everything that you need from the restorative side so that it's one thing to be able to do the surgery, but you also want a good outcome you want. You don't want all those problems of not understanding how to properly restore the case. And so now we've got this comprehensive course where doctors can learn the restorative side of things and also learn all the surgery that you're needed for this.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So go from level 1 to 3 and then restore, love it. Absolutely. So talking about helping you help a lot of people down there. So now with your Full Arch Buying Group, you are also helping dentists and doctors like solo practitioners to get that volume discount and get that group buying power. Tell us a little bit about this FABG. Is that what is that how we say it?

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Yeah, FABG. Absolutely. Yeah, FABG.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right, FABG. So what is this group? How does somebody get involved with this and what is the significance? What is it that you're trying to do with this group?

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Sure. So I'm noticing that there's a lot of large groups and dentistry in general, right? Being taken over by ... we've been seeing it over the last 10, 20 years being taken over by corporate dentistry. These groups are coming in, and they're purchasing private practices, grouping them together, and creating these large corporations. And although that's good for business, from a business standpoint, it's not good, in my opinion, for patients necessarily, and I believe that the private practice for my time in the DSO space, what I noticed is that private practice doctors are more focused on the best patient care and not as much just strictly myopic when it comes and focused on profits, right? And so I want to keep corporate dentistry at bay as much as I can. And the way to do that is to organize private practice doctors together, much in the same way a DSO, but allowing them to keep their anonymity and their business ownership to themselves. And the buying group takes Full Arch doctors. And what I've done is I've, I went to all the top people in the industry, and I said, hey, who are you using? What vendors do you use? What brands do you use when it comes to everything that you're using in the office? Who do you use? What do you like? And so then that's how I created my target list of who I wanted in this buying group. So any company that I use in the buying group that's in there, it's because they've been recommended by the top people in the industry that want to. I wanted to make sure that every vendor in there was if I'm telling a doctor about this group, it's, listen, this is what the top people, the most successful people in the industry use. And so, wouldn't you want to emulate that? And then you also want to get a great deal. And so I did that across every category: implants, biologics, Full Arch focused labs, surgical instruments, anesthesia equipment, surgical supplies, operative supplies all the way down, you name it. Even down to like, surgical chairs and headlights. Everything that a doctor needs and spends on whether digital technology, everything so that cumulative savings across all of those categories is going to help bring their overhead costs down so that they can compete better in this. In what's becoming a very competitive environment now, I believe Full Arch is probably the fastest-growing sector of dentistry in the past ten years. And so it becomes more and more competitive. Costs of marketing are going up, and it's becoming more expensive for patients with interest rates going up. And with inflation and people have less money, it's more expensive to borrow. Costs of everything are going up, and the landscape is becoming more competitive. It's becoming more expensive to market. So what is a doctor to do if the large corporation down the street is offering a very low price and patients are hurting for money, and he is forced to to have to charge much higher, that becomes a big disadvantage. And us organizing together as a buying group enables us to get that power back and negotiate prices, much like a DSO would, and able to help us lower that overhead and be more competitive in the space.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So does a dentist have to be placing implants to join the group, or is it something which anybody can join? What is the barrier of entry? Let's put it that way.

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Yeah, I would say this. This is tailored to Full Arch doctors and implant-focused offices. If you're not placing a lot of implants, there's plenty of other buying groups out there that would probably that have a larger that have been around longer, and are probably going to be more beneficial in comparison, right? But if you are placing a lot of implants, doing a lot of bone grafting, surgery, stuff like that, then this certainly could be something that could save you a lot of money. And then, of course, if you're into Full Arch, that's where it's going to really start to save you a ton of money, because we're looking at specific pricing for Full Arch doctors, whereas the digital workflow technology, the Full Arch Labs, or if you've got your own in-house lab, zirconia pucks, lab equipment, mills, furnaces, everything that you need for your in-house lab and for your Full Arch workflow.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. That's great info. What are some of the other requirements? Let's say I'm a Full Arch doc. I just got started maybe a year ago and I want to be part of the group. How does it work? So it's very a long time.

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Yeah, it's very easy. All they need to do is they go to the website FullArchBuyingGroup.com. And that is the, that's the portal. And they can create an account right there. They log in, I get a notification of every member. It's got to be a doctor, join the group. So, I vet everyone that comes in. But beyond that anybody can. Any doctor can join. And it's as easy as going to the website, FullArchBuyingGroup.com and creating an account. And what we do is generally, we'll be running different promotions and stuff that kind of give you a trial. You try it out for a couple months. That way you can see what the value is before you're ever charged. I want to make sure for me, this is about being a win for your business. And if it's not a win for your business, I don't want you to be a part of it. I want this to be something that helps you be more successful. And also, some of the stuff that we do is beyond just saving you money. So I've created a litany of different vendors that help provide support and resources, and that could be from staffing to social media management to marketing to sales training to business consulting software. There's just a bunch of different resources on there, and they're all been ones that I've either used myself successfully or have been recommended by the top people in the industry. So the idea is you don't need to look anywhere else or wonder you go there and you just you can see what you need, pick it out and what's going to work.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Like a full-service center, I love it.

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
That's absolutely, we're creating a Full Arch ecosystem to breed success, yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
One question for you. What's your future and where is this this Full Arch Buying Group going to go? And what are you going to do as an individual? What are your plans and goals?

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Sure, I've got a brand new family. I've got a new boy. Yes, I've got a newborn, thank you. Three months, and I've got a toddler of 20 months, so I've got two under two. So I've been I on top of trying to start all this business. It's been very busy, and/but the plan with all of this is also we're going to take this to the next level. Okay. So, the foolish buying group is just the beginning. We're creating something that eventually will become what's called Full Arch 360. Okay. So Full Arch 360 will be everything besides the buying group. It'll be a ton of other businesses and services that you could get involved in to help you be more successful. For instance, there's another business that I'm now that I'm about to launch right now as well, called Smile Score Solutions. And what Smile Score Solutions does, it is a platform that a doctor can subscribe to. And it is a full library, video library of educational videos, and a step-by-step process that your patients can go through that educates them on their on how to improve their credit and gives them a step-by-step process on how to quickly improve their score and also remove negative items that helps them junk their score up. And so what we do is the doctor pays a subscription to be a part of it, and then they will get a link to their own customized portal with the full library of educational videos and pre-made letters and templates that go along with the step-by-step system that the patient just fills out and sends in to help them remove negative items, and so the doctor can hand this link out to every patient that comes in. 50% of patients that come in are declined for financing, and 60% to 70% of your leads are not qualified. And what do you do with those patients usually after they're declined? Or what if they're not even qualified? Usually you don't even bring them in for a. You just put them on a drip campaign to keep them, keep your office in there in the forefront of their brain. Or if they're been if they came to your office for a consult, they've been declined. Usually, you put them on a drip campaign. There's really not much you do for that patient. They feel hopeless. And so this is something where the doctor can say, hey, you're not a lost cause. Here's a free course from us to you. Normally, it would be like a $600 value, and you're able to give this away to all of your patients and give them the ability to take this course and over the next few months, improve their credit. And because they're on your portal, because it's branded for your office, it keeps them in your ecosphere. And so when they improve their credit score, they are ready to come back to your office to change their life and get that procedure that they've been, that they were declined for in the past. And so that's called Smile Score Solutions. So that's another business that we're about to launch. And then we've got a bunch of other ideas lined up, whether it's software that's going to help track all in one, your operations, your clinical, your marketing, and your sales for Full Arch. And it's going to be focused towards like implant focused office. But to bring all of the, all that data under one dashboard, it doesn't really exist. A lot of times right now, you're probably not like some marketing agencies will give you data on your sales, but it's only related to their leads, right? It's not right. What about all your other leads that are coming into your office? How are you tracking your sales performance? Really. And so we want to capture sales as a whole. We want to capture your marketing. We want to provide a CRM for you so that when you if you decide to switch marketing companies, you're not losing all of that data because the marketing company owns it. You have your own that they just plug into, right? So we're trying to create this so that doctors have this. They have they're self-sustaining. And then they can just hire who they want and try out different companies because everything they need is right there. It's right there.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, I love it. I love this idea because right now, currently, we are using our own CRM, like with Go High Level. And the problem is it's all these guys coming in. They all have their own data, but they do not want to sync with ours. And that's we understand everybody has their own business. And what I think what you're explaining here is it's going to make perfect sense, because that's really going to keep a good track of everybody, because all us sudden we get taken advantage of every single day by these marketing agencies.

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
100%. I see it all the time, and the key there is to get them to be more honest. The ones that are out to take advantage need to drop away, right? They need to be exposed and drop away and fail. And the ones that are actually there to really help you succeed and are honest in what they're offering and do what they say. They're the ones that need to rise to the top, that we need to use their expertise to help us be more successful. And that's hard to find in this industry, sometimes.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Very hard. Jonathan, man, thanks for your time. This was great. Is there anything you would like to add last minute?

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
I mean, I think we covered a lot today, man. I'm really excited about the future and what we can do to help docs. And if anybody wants to reach out to me, I do consulting too. So, like on the when you're when you're a Full Arch buying group member, you can book time with me, and I do one-on-one coaching some of the stuff that we talked about today. I've got tons of advice to give. I've got all the blueprints, all the everything that I did. I can share that knowledge, and I want to share it. And I want to help everyone be successful. When everyone else wins, I win, too. We all win. And that's the idea behind all of this. Anyone that wants to join the group, there's one-on-one coaching. And so that's why my email is Jonathan@TheFullArchCoach.com. And so that's how anyone can reach out to me with questions. And of course, you can go to FullArchBuyingGroup.com and sign up for your membership. Anybody that uses the actually, I've got a two-month trial code going right now. It's GROWTH24, so anyone that uses that code will get two months free.

Dr. Noel Liu:
GROWTH24. I'll make sure I put all that information on the link. Awesome, man, I appreciate it.

Dr. Jonathan Theis:
Yeah, very excited about the future of this. And I just want to help as many docs out as possible. We've been on the side of training docs. Running offices and seeing patients. And now I just want to help. I want to help. I want to have as big of an impact on this sector of dentistry as I can. Love it, love it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hey, thanks so much, everyone. We're going to land the plane here. Thanks for watching, and make sure to like and subscribe. We'll come back with another episode and in the meantime, reach out to Jonathan. He's on his site, and hit him up. Thanks a lot. Thanks, John.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Dr. Jonathan Theis:

Dr. Jonathan Theis is a general practitioner with over a decade of clinical experience, specializing in cosmetics, implants, and aligner orthodontics. He graduated from the Maurice H. Kornberg School of Dentistry at Temple University in 2009 and began ownership of his first private practice office, Legendary Smiles, in 2014. Over the past six years, he has focused on the business side of dentistry, building private practices, multi-practice groups, and corporate expansions.

He is the co-founder of Smart Arches Dental Implants with Dr. Simon Oh and serves as the Director of Sales and Finance for Orcaa, GP. A dentist and entrepreneur, Dr. Theis recently launched his own full arch consulting firm, The Full Arch Coach, and is developing a full arch-specific buying group and a company called Smile Score Solutions, which helps patients improve their credit scores for dental financing. Dr. Theis is committed to making any business he is involved in successful, and he has the experience and expertise to help doctors achieve success in their own practices.

In his leisure time, Dr. Theis enjoys writing, playing, and recording music. He is skilled in multiple instruments, including guitar, bass, and drums, as well as singing and songwriting. Additionally, he is passionate about health and fitness, is an avid weightlifter, and considers himself a nutritional enthusiast. Dr. Theis has a loving wife, a one-year-old daughter, an infant daughter, and a toy-sized Goldendoodle. On most Sundays, he can be found cheering on his favorite NFL team and checking his fantasy football stats.

 

Things You’ll Learn:

  •  
  • Establishing authority and trust through social media, patient testimonials, and educational content can significantly increase patient engagement and reduce the need for aggressive sales tactics.
  • Utilizing third-party resources, like anesthesiologists and specialized lab techs, can optimize operations and improve patient care while keeping costs manageable. 
  • Forming a buying group allows private practitioners to leverage collective purchasing power, which helps them compete with larger corporate entities while maintaining independent ownership and patient-focused care.
  • Building referral networks with local general practitioners can increase patient flow and create mutually beneficial relationships that support specialized practices. 
  • Innovative financing solutions, like Smile Score Solutions, help patients improve their credit, allowing practices to retain potential patients who would otherwise be declined for financing.

Resources:

Categories
Podcast

Ensuring Long-Term Savings in Healthcare Real Estate

Summary:

Landlords, motivated by profit, often have the upper hand in negotiations, especially with inexperienced tenants. 

In this episode of the Secure Dental Podcast, Colin Carr, founder and CEO of CARR, emphasizes the importance of healthcare providers having expert representation in lease negotiations and property purchases. CARR specializes in tenant and buyer representation, helping healthcare providers secure fair lease terms, concessions, and overall profitability. Throughout this conversation, Colin highlights the risks of predetermined lease renewals and the benefits of having an independent advisor review leases and negotiate on behalf of the tenant. By hiring experts like his firm, healthcare providers can save significant amounts of money over their careers and ensure they get the best possible deals. 

Tune in for insider tips on how healthcare providers can save hundreds of thousands of dollars on their leases and property purchases! 

 

Secure Dental-Colin Carr: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental-Colin Carr: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hey, hey, welcome again to our Secure Dental podcast. This is another episode where we bring in many great talents from both inside and outside our dental profession. And today, we have a really, really great treat here. So before we get started, big shout out to my sponsor, DentVia. DentVia is a virtual dental administration company that assists our front desk and our office managers with back-end tasks such as calling leads, insurance verification, and all the back-end stuff, which we all hate. Definitely visit them at DentVia.com. That's www. D E N T Via.com. Now, without further ado, I'm going to jump right in. I got Colin Carr. He's the founder and CEO of Carr, a nationwide leader in healthcare real estate. Colin knows doctors inside out. He knows healthcare, and he helps us get the real estate as well as lease spaces to better serve our needs. Now, without giving out any further information, I'm going to pass the mic off to you, Colin, and I want you to do the intro and take it from there, man. All yours.

Colin Carr:
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. So, I've been doing commercial real estate for over two decades now. I started in real estate when I was 19. I got out of high school and was not sure what I wanted to do, but I knew I was fascinated with real estate and a few other things, so I jumped right in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Did you say 19?

Colin Carr:
Yep, yep. So, I started managing apartment complexes and doing a lot of property management. And then, I got into brokerage, like helping people lease and purchase when I was 22. And the first company I worked for was basically a tenant-buyer firm, mostly for like large retailers. So we did Walmart, Wendy's, fast food like Wells Fargo, Blockbuster. We had a coffee franchise that competed with Starbucks, so it was stuff like that. I did that for a couple of years, enjoyed it, but I started just by default. I started working with a lot more business owners. I started doing office and industrial tenants, and then I found myself involved in a handful of medical and healthcare deals, and I had a couple clients that I'd worked for that owned industrial buildings, that purchased some medical buildings, and so I got thrust into the medical space just by default. And I realized that I really liked working with healthcare providers. And so I started doing more and more healthcare, more and more medical, and I got to eventually to the place where I was doing almost exclusively healthcare. And I had a series of deals that happened sequentially where, I knew this is how the game was played. I had lived it, I had done it. But just for me, I had this epiphany like, hey, we need to adjust the business model and shift how we're doing things differently. And so I'll give the quick little story about, you know, I had a couple of medical buildings that I was listing. I actually had quite a few, but I had these specific ones that I was listing for this landlord, and we had a couple doctors who had leases coming up for renewal. So they'd been in the property for a long time. They had thriving practices, and I was talking to the landlord, who was a large publicly traded REIT that owned the real estate, and the asset manager called me one day, and he said, hey, let's talk about Doctor So-and-so's lease. It's coming up for renewal. And he said, have you met with the doctor? And I said, yeah, I met with them last week. And he said, does he have a broker? And I said, no, he's doing it by himself. Then he asked me, does he know the market? And I said, you know, he thinks he does, but he doesn't know the market even close to what he should. And then he asked me, do you think he's willing to move? And I said, I know he's not willing to move because he told me that he shouldn't have told me that, but he told me that. He told me he didn't want to move and he couldn't move. And so he was already paying like $4 or $5 a square foot above what we were asking for new tenants at the property. Like, if this guy would have just gone on our website and looked at the marketing materials, he would have seen we're marketing spaces that are vacant in the building, like $4 or $5 a foot below what he was paying. And the landlord says to me, go back to him at a lease rate. That was another like $4 or $5 above what he was currently paying. And so I'm like, well, that's going to put him like literally $11 a square foot above market, like $400,000 or $500,000 in excess rent from what he's going to pay over the next 7 to 10 years than if he was at a competitive lease rate if he knew what he was doing. And the landlord just said to me, he goes, get it done, or I'll find someone who will. And I got it done, got the lease done. And the interesting thing is the doctor didn't even know he was overpaying. Like it wasn't like he was kicking and screaming and yelling and sending, you know, bad emails that people and he didn't even know, he literally just signed off on the lease and went back to his business. And so I had a couple of those scenarios where I just watched landlords just completely manhandle these doctors. And the landlords were professional negotiators, professional investors, and then they were hiring me as a professional negotiator. And then the group of us is going up against these doctors that are incredibly intelligent. Like, you can't become a dentist or a physician if you're not intelligent. But they had no idea how to play the commercial real estate game, and it is truly a game. So, after a number of those deals, I just realized it is a fair fight. Both sides are ready, willing and able. No one forced the doctors to lease a space or to sign a lease. But I just realized that these guys need our help. So 2009, I launched our company, which is called CARR, and the idea was we would do only healthcare, and we would do only tenant and buyer rep. So we'd always be advocating on behalf of the doctor that the practice and we would eliminate conflicts of interest. We wouldn't have one person pretending like they're working for one party, but they actually have a fiduciary with the other. We just draw a clean line of separation where only on the doctor's side. We're going to protect their interests, level the playing field, help save them a couple hundred thousand dollars per deal, if not more, save a ton of time, and we launched it in '09. And today, we're now licensed in all 50 states. We have over 5000 clients that we're doing. I think actually we have over 5500 clients that we're actively doing work for right now where we're helping them renegotiate a lease, buy a property, start a practice, what have you. And our whole focus is just protecting the doctor's interests and helping them to maximize their practices' profitability by getting the best possible terms.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So you've seen both sides. I mean, you know, that's a big, big, huge plus because you were working for the other side before. So you know exactly how these guys are going to be treating, you know, us professionals. And then now you're working on this side. So, what do you think has changed? Like, you know, from the time when you were working for them in this time. Is it like pretty much the same deal if it's a, you know, owned, like, let's say, real estate or if it's like a mom and pop owned real estate, or do you see like a difference in like how they handle their leases?

Colin Carr:
Yeah, you know, I mean, there's definitely different types of owners. You get somebody that maybe inherited a building, it's their only property, or, you know, maybe their parents own the property, and then they inherited something like that. Then you get these guys that are, you know, maybe they own a building or two, or maybe somebody bought a property for their own business, and they're leasing it out to a few other tenants. So they kind of know what's going on. And then you get into this realm of like just truly professional landlords, like institutional landlords, whether it's a REIT or it's an insurance company or just a very well capitalized investment group. And so you deal with different tendencies as far as how they operate. But the one thing that's the same, no matter who you're working with, is everyone wants to make the most amount of money they can. And this is not like limited to landlords. Like no dentist wants an insurance company to reduce their reimbursements. No dentist is going to tell an insurance. No dentist is going to tell Delta Dental. Hey, listen, if you guys want to pay me 20% less next year than you pay me this year, it's not a problem. Like everyone wants the most they can get. You want to do it with integrity. You want to do it fairly, but nobody wants to have their money. Give them an average yield, you want the highest return from the stock market. You want your 401K to push out the biggest returns. And so it's a really obvious game when you think about it. But a lot of doctors approach landlords as if the landlord actually thinks that they care about them. Like, landlords will say stuff like, you've been a great tenant, we want to keep you, we'll treat you fairly. And they're saying that so the doctor puts their guard down and then signs off on a lease where they overpay by a quarter million dollars in a 5, 7, or 10-year period. So, the tactics haven't changed a whole lot. You get savvy landlords that want to make as much as they possibly can. They might even be a patient of the doctor. They might send them a Christmas basket. They might take him golfing every couple of years to try to keep that relational equity there, so to speak. But at the end of the day, these landlords, they want the highest return. They want to make their properties worth as much as they can. And that only comes through increasing lease rates, reducing how much you give in concessions. And so landlords are savvy, and they play the game well, and they are in it to make as much as they possibly can.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Great. Let's talk about this here, like renewals, lease renewals, like a lot of the misconception, is like, hey, you got this two five-year options or, you know, coming up, is that somewhere whereas a tenant we can still negotiate, or is that set in stone?

Colin Carr:
Yeah, that's a great question, truthfully, because a lot of people will get a lease renewal option, and there's two main types of options on a lease renewal. There's one option where you have predetermined lease rates for a predetermined amount of time. So you might do a ten-year lease and then have two five-year options to renew. And then, in the lease, it will say that the first five-year options would be maybe year 11 through 15. It'll start where your ten left off with a 3% increase or a 4% increase. And so year ten ends, and then it just ratchets up for the next five years and keeps going up. So a predetermined lease rate over a predetermined amount of time. The other type of lease renewal option is what we call just an option, where the landlord has to negotiate with you in good faith. So typically, I'll say things like then market rents or to be negotiated terms, that's typically a much more favorable renewal option because when you just sign off on that predetermined numbers, like on a five-year option with set lease rates, number one, you're probably above market. I mean, most leases have an annual increase, and that annual increase outpaces inflation. Now, we've had record inflation the last couple of years. But even so, typically, those leases increase at a rate each year. That outpaces where the lease rates would be if you vacated that space, what would the landlord go to market and try to release that? Typically, you're paying more than they would charge a new tenant. So we've got to get that lease rate back down to a competitive lease rate. And then, on top of that, savvy tenants don't sign off on lease renewals without getting concessions, free rent, renovation allowances. And so if you just exercise a renewal option and you're an above market lease rate and you get no free rent, no build out or renovation or tea allowance, you probably just lost $100 or $200 or $300 grand like that. Starbucks is not going to sign another 5 or 10 years and give a landlord another 5 or 10 years of guaranteed cash flow and make their life super easy. They don't even have to release the space. They just sign a document without capturing concessions. So savvy tenants need to realize every economic concession that's on the table, for a new tenant, doing a new lease is on the table for renewal. Why wouldn't it be? It's the cheapest, easiest, fastest with the least amount of risk deal a landlord could do. Why would a landlord not give you some level of concessions? Yet landlords tell tenants all the time, oh, we don't do that on renewals or.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right, right.

Colin Carr:
Stuff like that.

Dr. Noel Liu:
But you've seen it happen, right?

Colin Carr:
... everything.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right.

Colin Carr:
And that's the thing. When you deal with institutional landlords like the REIT that we were dealing with on that one specific renewal that I mentioned earlier, they had budgeted like they had literally several months of free rent budgeted. They had commissions for the tenant to have a broker even though they didn't. So, I got a double commission on that one as the landlord agent. They had free rent; they had a lower lease rate scheduled. And then when the tenant didn't have a broker, didn't know what he was doing, and wasn't going to move, the landlord was like, I'm not going to give this guy anything. In fact, I'm going to charge him a premium. So that deal, literally, if that doctor would have had an expert advisor helping him, he literally could have cut his rent down to $10, $11 a foot lower. He could have gotten 4 or 5 months of free rent. He could have gotten enough money to fully renovate, like flooring, paints, you know, upgrade some millwork, you know, window treatments, lights, etc., and instead, he just signed off on it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So in a case like that, is a doctor paying you guys a commission there or is it the landlord still?

Colin Carr:
That's the beautiful part of it is commissions and commercial real estate are paid just like residential real estate typically is paid. They're paid by the landlord. And so, like in residential, anyone who's ever bought a house that's hired an agent or broker to help them, they know that the seller has a commission set aside for the deal, and they offer half to their agent, the listing agent, and then they offer half to the buyer's agent because they're trying to attract agents to bring them, buyers. Commercial real estate is the same thing. Landlords want tenants, they want to lease spaces, they want to sell spaces. So they hire brokers typically, or they do it internally. And there's almost always a commission set aside for the buyer or the tenant, in this case, the healthcare provider, to have representation. And if the healthcare provider doesn't, the landlord's agent just gets a double commission. So it's not hard to figure out why a listing agent would want to make you think they're helping you, but they're actually not. Or why the landlords would say things like, hey, if you don't use an agent, we'll give you a better deal. I mean, it's complete nonsense. Like literally what they're saying is if you don't use an agent, I'm going to save myself the money, put it in my pocket, and then I'm going to overcharge you by $200,000 but make you think you got a deal.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So and so. Let's say, if the doctor wants to renew now, right? And they want to look for some sort of representation now. So that would be the doctor's responsibility then, correct?

Colin Carr:
Correct, yeah. Because the landlord's not going to say, hey, call Colin or one of his guys because the landlord knows that we're going to hold them accountable. We're not going to disrespect them. We're not going to take advantage of them. But the landlord knows I can't pull the wool over this guy's eyes. I'm going to have to treat him fairly because Colin knows the market. He knows what other landlords and sellers are willing to do, and he's not going to allow the doctor to take a bad deal.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it, love it. And what happens, like, in a predetermined renewal when you're doing, like, let's say everything is figured out, is there a room for some sort of negotiation there, or is it like?

Colin Carr:
Yeah. So the best way to handle that, that's a good question to kind of bring this all together for this topic. The best way to look at it is contact an expert real estate advisor that specializes in healthcare tenant-buyer rep. Let them look at your current lease and the renewal option, and then let them do a market evaluation for you. If, for some reason, that option to renew actually is competitive for some reason, let's just say that your original lease was so competitive, and the renewal option terms are so far below market. Just because the market's gone up so much, there's a possibility of just signing that renewal option could make the most sense for you and waiving any options for free rent or TI, because the lease rates are so much lower, and the landlord would not give you that lease rate if you negotiated. But typically, you're better off to waive that option and just have your agent rep negotiate a brand-new deal. Because here's the reality. The tenant might say, well, yeah, well, I don't want to move. Here's the reality. The landlord doesn't want you to move worse than you don't want to move, like the landlord doesn't want a vacant space. If the space goes vacant, they're going to spend 9 to 18 months waiting to release the space. Then they're going to have a new tenant come in. That's not going to sign off on a bogus lease rate and pay above market like you are. They're going to be more competitive, and they're going to negotiate harder. And so the landlord's going to have to bring that lease rate down to get that space leased. Then that new tenant is going to want to renovate the space anytime. I don't care how nice the space is when someone moves out of it. You see every floor. You see, the flooring needs to be replaced. You see, all the walls need to be touched up and repainted. You see chips and cabinetry. And so that landlord is going to sit vacant for 9 to 18 months. They're going to end up with a lower lease rate, typically, for a new tenant, they're going to have to give free rent and other concessions. The landlord would rather just have you stay in that space, sign a renewal. And so, the game plan is to educate the landlord on we know how the game is played. You're going to lose $100, $200 grand if our client moves out. We're not trying to take advantage of you, but you've got to give us a fair deal. It's got to be you winning and us Losing is not a fair deal. We've got to both win. You keep a tenant, you dramatically reduce your risk factor of having a space go vacant for a longer period of time that you want. You cut down your exposure on what the new deal will cost, but you've got to give us concessions. You got to give us a fair deal. And when savvy landlords know that you know how to play the game, they just cut to the quick. It's kind of like if an attorney is working with another savvy attorney, they talk to them totally different than if an attorney is talking to someone who's not represented, like they know that the other attorney is not going to play that game. If the IRS is doing an audit and they're talking to an individual, they're going to talk to them differently. If they're talking to a savvy tax advisor, it's just it's not hard to figure out. Judges talk to attorneys different than judges would talk to an unrepresented person. And so it's not to escalate it to a lawsuit or to a tax, a tax situation, or an audit. But it's just one of those things where the landlords are asking themselves, is the tenant in the know, or can I get whatever I want to accomplish here? When they know that the tenants are represented, they just handle the entire transaction a lot more intentionally with respect. And ultimately, you typically get better terms.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's huge, man, what you just said. I mean, it just makes total sense what you just said because this is like kind of deal like where you're going to be saving them so much capital upfront and along the way that is automatically going to pay for your services.

Colin Carr:
Yeah, it does. I mean, people always say, well, they'll say, all right, well, if the commission is built into the deal, can I still save money if I'm not? And it's like, no, because you're not the one cutting the check as the commission payer. Like if you were the landlord or seller, sure, you could choose not to pay commission or only to pay one. In that case, you would save money. But if you're the tenant or the buyer and the landlord is paying the commissions, you're not saving money by going it alone. You're literally just patting the landlord's pockets, or the listing broker gets a double commission. So the best example I can give you is this: every single dentist who has patients that have dental insurance, they run a report like in the, towards the end of the third quarter of the fourth quarter. And they see which patients still have benefits they have not used yet. And then they contact those patients, and they say the patient will call them and say, hey, listen, you've got enough money to do this, or let's get that filling taken care of, or let's get this done. Because if you do not use it, the insurance company is not sending you that check if you don't use it. They're not going to pay me for the unused portion. They're not going to reimburse you for the unused to use it or lose it scenario, right? And so that's the best example I can give is if you don't use a broker, the landlord just keeps it or pays their broker a double commission. And so it's really when dentists would look at how many patients didn't come in and use the remaining benefits that year, they're like, man, you just lost it, and so there's really no reason not to.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Exactly, exactly. Well, that was such a great nugget that you dropped. I mean, I think this is something which we should highlight, definitely. So, let me ask you this here. Why healthcare? And how do you know so much about dentistry?

Colin Carr:
You know, I've done a pretty broad segment of real estate. I've done the large retailers like Walmart. Like we said before, I've done large international companies like Honeywell and, you know, large publicly traded companies. I just liked working with the doctors. We definitely do large groups of practices and people that have dozens or hundreds of locations, and those guys function on a more institutional level, but I just like to work with the doctors. I remember the first dentist that I helped save him like $350,000 on a leash. You know, he'd been trying to negotiate with his landlord, was getting just completely annihilated in the negotiation. And someone said, hey, bring Colin. He did. I saved him $350,000. Like, that was super meaningful for me. I got him a nicer space. A bigger space saved him a ton of money. And just from a relational position, it was more meaningful to me. And then Walmart saving a little bit of money. That's great. But they don't really care. Like, right? You are a number to them. Where for me, my very first dental deal. I wasn't a number. The guy really cared about me, and I was it was very intentional about how Pam and I knew that it would make a difference for him and his family, and so for me, it just felt more meaningful.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it, so I have an example for you. I'm looking at a practice right now, and the space is leased. The practice is for sale, right? And what would you recommend, you know, going over there, speaking with a landlord directly or somebody like your caliber, going in there and looking at the lease for us, what's in place, and what needs to be done?

Colin Carr:
Yeah, that's a great question. So you never want to talk to a landlord until you know what's going on. And people say, well, I'm just going to ask them to send me this or that. Don't do that. Let the current practice owner give you their lease, or the practice broker give you their lease. That's step number one. Step number two would be to have someone like me or someone else review the lease for you and then give you feedback on the quality of terms. It's again, it's not uncommon when a lease is getting ready to renew in a year or two for it to be above market, so we're not concerned if it's above market. That doesn't stop a transaction from happening. It just gives us insight into what's available as you move forward. Now, if that doctor just signed a new ten-year lease and there's nine and a half years left, really, the only reason you're evaluating is just so that you have information to realize if you have a good, bad, or average lease. But if that lease is coming up for renewal in the next year or two, or it's coming up for renewal in six months, and you're going to have to deal with it, then the person you're talking to can say, let's put together a strategy and figure out how to get you back to a competitive lease rate, or let's figure out how to get you money to renovate the space. It could be a fair lease rate, but the space could need some upgrades. And so that stuff's all on the table. Sometimes, people buy a practice. Ten years left, seven years left. You just inherited. And then you live to fight another day. You wait till you get inside 12 or 18 months in the future, whether that's 5 years away, 8 years away, and then you renegotiate it. But if there's a chance for you to renegotiate that lease in the next, you know, year or two, probably you're going to be doing that simultaneously to buy into practice. And then a couple other quick pointers. You don't want the current doctor renegotiating that lease for you. Okay. They're not going to be there. You want to keep them out of that process. You also do not want the practice broker renegotiating that lease for you because they do not work for you, right? They have a legal obligation to help the selling doctor make as much money as possible in the transaction, and they might make you think that they're helping you because they're giving you information, and you can call them and ask them questions, but that's not your advisor, right? This is a person who has a legal obligation to help the selling doctor maximize their profitability. So you want an independent, neutral person that's not tied to the landlord, that is then tied to you. And that person will help advise you. Talk about how to handle the process. And again, ultimately, it's the same scenario. This current landlord does not want to lose any tenant, whether it's the current tenant they've known for 5, 10, 20 years, or it's you coming and buying the practice. They don't want a vacant space. And so we just want to make sure it's a fair trade. Good terms. And if we need to renovate the space, if you're going to get that landlord another 5, 7, or 10 years, that landlord needs to contribute financially to the deal.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Awesome. I know you mentioned about like you're helping like big groups as well, right? It's DSO, one of your specialty as well.

Colin Carr:
We do a lot of DSOs. Yeah, we do a lot of DSOs, MSOs, VSOs on the veterinary side; we do a little bit of everything. Our bread and butter has always been the sole practitioner, individual doctor, whether they own a practice or 2 or 5. But we have so many clients that we've taken from 1 to 20 practices, or 1 to 10, that we've just entered that space kind of automatically by the nature of how we help them. But we also do a lot of DSOs as well.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Great. Well, Colin, I mean, this is huge, man. I mean, you've changed my mind about getting help.

Colin Carr:
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of analogies I could give, and people don't usually think this way, but, I mean, it's not hard for a dentist to look into someone's mouth and to see if they have a receding gum line. It's maybe not as obvious for a patient to see their own receding gumline or understanding what's going on. Most patients aren't going to be able to tell you if the color of their gum is right or if it's incorrect. You X-ray their teeth, and you can tell if you need to put a filling in or not, or if the roots that I mean, you just know these things because you have the instruments and tools, and certainly there's a very specific skill set that you employ when you perform the work. But analyzing someone and saying, hey, listen, we have too much crowding here. This is not right. We need to remove a molar. Like that's what you do every day. A really good real estate agent that knows the market, that understands how healthcare, real estate deals work, that understands the landlord's motivations. They're going to be able to analyze your situation very quickly, and then they're going to give you information and give you options. So no one makes the decision for you. No one forces you to sign a deal or not sign a deal. They're just arm you with information saying, let's come up with a game plan. Like if you want to stay in the space, that's great. But we've got to have other options that we compare it to. We've got to know what it looks like if you wanted to own real estate and purchase. If you want to look at multiple locations to expand, like we can't just pick one property and negotiate with one landlord; we've got to go at the entire market, look at 4 or 5 options, eight options, and then negotiate with 3 or 4, because we don't have a basis to compare any deal unless we have multiple options. Like if you pick one landlord and you start negotiating either on a renewal or a new deal, the only basis you have for comparing the terms are where they started versus where they end. But that's a terrible way to measure the deal. If you look at eight properties and you can do that literally in an hour and a half, two hours, you don't have to spend half an hour on every property. You can do it very efficiently. And then if your agent negotiates with 3 or 4 landlords simultaneously on a non-binding basis, if one landlord is giving $50 a square foot and build an allowance, the next one's giving $45, the next one's giving $55, and then one tries to say, we'll give you $10 a foot. Well, ten is better than zero where they started. But that's a terrible deal. You're leaving literally $180,000 to $200,000 on the table. And so having that information just helps you realize this is what's possible. And you can get away from things like, well, we never do that, or we've never done that before. That's not how the game is played. I wish I could, but my bank won't let me. Like, landlords throw all these like completely arbitrary and unilateral statements that have no basis, and then they're waiting to see if the doctor honestly is ignorant enough to believe it. And typically, they are. And so when you have someone who's savvy, they're like, that's if that's your stance, you don't have a deal to make here. We're going to move on to the other three landlords that are competitive. When they hear that, they instantly change their tune. And here comes the revised proposal with what you asked for. And so it sounds, you know, pretty straightforward. But it takes a strategy and it takes a way of saying things. So again, it's always done with respect. It's done with dignity and integrity. But if you don't hold the landlords accountable, they will steamroll you, and they'll do it with a smile on their face. And they'll send you a Harry and David gift basket with some pears after you signed a lease. And I've never had a landlord send me a gift before, and it's like, yeah, you just overpaid by $300,000. Like they're $40. Harry and David basket saved them, you know, saved them $300 grand. Like, it's amazing the way that people don't see what's actually happening.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Now, one last question for you. So we spoke about leases. What about triple-net? Like a lot of times, I see like these leases, they have like humongous admin fee management fees. Like they just kill it. I mean, like, they're almost equal to the size of the rent on the lease itself. Is that negotiable or is that just set in stone?

Colin Carr:
It's very hard to negotiate triple-net leases. It's very hard to negotiate any of the operating expenses. But what you can do to make sure that you're not setting yourself up to get taken advantage of is start by just asking for a line item breakdown of the operating expenses. And that plays whether it's a full-service lease or a modified gross or a triple-net lease, because what you're going to get from most people that are running their properties properly is you're going to get a like an Excel spreadsheet or like a QuickBooks printout, but it's going to have everything, and you're going to see the property taxes, property insurance, property management, and then you're going to see like historicals on electrical, on water and sewer, on janitorial, on landscaping, on snow removal, and then you can start to get a feel for if these numbers make sense. If you see a management fee, and the management fee is, let's say, the equivalent of like $1, $1.50, a square foot on the property, that's a regular fee or a 3% fee. That's a fair fee. If they're charging, you know, a 20% management fee, that's probably going to be egregious, and it's probably going to be an unrealistic amount of money, and the landlord's just pocketing that as more profit. So you can determine if you want to do business with those people or not, or if you want to try to address that. A lot of things, though. A lot of times, the triple nets are made up of the three-nets are taxes, property insurance, and then operating expenses. And it's not uncommon to see property taxes account for even half of the operating costs. Like our office that we have is in South Denver. It's in a suburb called Lone Tree. The taxes alone in our office space are $10 per square foot per year. I mean, you look at just astronomical and it's a complete abuse of the tax system. I'm not here to get political. I'm just saying like $10 per square foot, just on property taxes. I mean, a 4000-foot space, and we're paying over $40,000 a year to the county in taxes. I mean, that's I feel like it's personally egregious, but that helps to make more sense when you see what the operating costs are $15 a foot. Well, 10 of the 15 are taxes, so it's a little bit more palatable from that standpoint because we can't do a whole lot with the county. Then we break down that $5 a square foot and figure out all right how much that's going to utilities. That's a direct pass-through. How much goes to snow removal direct pass through. And so then you get down to the areas of management fees and reserves. Those are the two areas that may have a little bit of play. So management fees and then how much you're putting into reserves for the property, those concepts are able to be addressed or discussed. And if you're going to have any success on capping something or negotiating, it would come there. But I will tell you this: most landlords won't touch those things even when they're charging excessive amounts. They'll just say, that's the way I run the property. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. So at that point you're looking at how does this property compare to other properties? And even if it's higher than you want to pay, if it's still the best property, the best terms, it just kind of comes with the territory.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And you always recommend doing it before signing the lease, right? Getting the itemized breakdown.

Colin Carr:
Absolutely, because there's zero you can do afterwards. I mean, you can audit the operating expenses for most leases. You can ask questions, you can get a CPA involved and make sure they're not, you know, violating accounting laws. I mean, they are under accounting principles and laws. I mean, they can be found to be fraudulent or to be, you know, stealing money and so forth from the association or from the tenants. But you're just better off to do it ahead of time. Like most things, you're better to measure twice, cut once, and this is one of those areas for sure.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Well, Colin, I think that's it from my side. What else you got to add, man? I mean, you gave like a ton and ton of info. This is something which I think a lot of our healthcare providers, as well as our dentist colleagues, they'll definitely find it helpful for sure.

Colin Carr:
Yeah. I mean, the final advice I would give is simply this. Just hire great people in every area that you're not an expert in. And there's a reason that people, you know, go to an oral surgeon to have a tooth removed or an orthodontist have braces put on or do Invisalign. You go to people that are trained in an area that have a history of better results. And in real estate, typically, you're not actually cutting a check for their services, which is fantastic. But even in other areas, like you hire a really good real estate attorney, you don't hire your brother-in-law who does family law in Iowa if you live in California, like you hire people that are qualified in your area. You hire a good architect, good contractors, good attorneys. You get good insurance, you hire good marketing companies, you hire good real estate brokers like the top practices in the country. This is how they operate. And it's the same thing for the top companies like go outside of healthcare. Like Chipotle is not going to get taken advantage of on a lease because they hire the best brokers. They have the best attorneys. You know, you're not going to see Starbucks sign a bad lease. They just don't do that. Like they hire really good brokers, they know what they're doing, and they have a strategy. So if Lockheed Martin, or Charles Schwab, or any office or retail user is going to handle real estate with a very specific focus and make sure they maximize the opportunity, just do the same thing. It's literally once every 5, 7 or 10 years, no one's asking you to dedicate your entire life to a new skill set or a new career. Just hire someone who's really good. They'll help protect you. And then if they save you $200,000, $300,000, you do that 4 or 5 times over your career, and you'll find out that you've got literally millions of dollars of savings cumulatively over a 20 or 30 or 40-year career. And that's meaningful for most people.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And a peace of mind.

Colin Carr:
Absolutely. I know we're ending it, but I would say this, that peace of mind is honestly worth almost more than the savings. Nobody wants to wonder if they got a good deal or a bad deal for the next 10 years. Like having information, having the ability to just say, hey, I know that I got the best terms at the best properties that fit my budget that I could afford. That made sense, like I did the best I could with what I had. And that's a great place to be in any position, but especially in real estate.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Well, Colin, you just changed my mind, honestly. Like, you know, thinking about, okay, I need to get professionals because the way I look at it is I like to delegate all my weaknesses. Honestly, if I have an HVAC problem, if I have an electrical problem, who am I going to call? I'm not going to tackle it myself. So, like you just put it, man. You put it. I mean, like, I don't think you can put it any nicely. Because we, as dentists, we're always trying to see like, hey, we delegate everything. But when it comes to lease negotiations, we want to do it ourselves.

Colin Carr:
Absolutely.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And that's crazy. I love it. Well, Colin, hey, thanks so much for coming in. We're going to land the plane here. We'll definitely have your info there. Just verbally. How would they reach you or your agents?

Colin Carr:
Yeah. Best way to get in touch with us is our website. It's CARR.us. So C A R R.us, upper right-hand corner or on the nav bar. If you're on mobile, click to find an agent, and then you can pick your state. Pick your market. You can start a conversation with anyone that you want to. You can see different bios. Some markets, we have a lot of agents, some markets, we have a few. But you can see the different agents, or if you want to keep it simple, just click the Contact Us button. Basically, like literally, like check 3 or 4 boxes, and we'll have someone get in touch with you within a matter of literally a couple hours, and they can start the conversation. And whether you have a need coming up in the next year or two, or even if you just signed a ten-year lease, but you're just curious how you did, we'll give you the time you deserve and set you on the right course. And even if you're ten years out, we'll still give you the time, the conversations and give you a few tips in the meantime.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Awesome. Thank you so much. Appreciate all your info. All right. Great. So ladies and gentlemen, make sure you like and subscribe. We know Colin was a great, great help. Make sure you look up for his agents. And if there's anything that's coming up related to leasehold improvements or lease in itself, definitely hook them up. All right, Colin, thanks so much.

Colin Carr:
Thank you.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Colin Carr:

Colin Carr is the founder and CEO of CARR, the nation’s leading provider of commercial real estate services for healthcare tenants and buyers. Every year, thousands of healthcare practices trust CARR to help them achieve the most favorable terms on their lease and purchase negotiations. Colin has been involved in commercial real estate for over two decades and has personally been involved in thousands of transactions.

Things You’ll Learn:

  •  
  • Even with predetermined rates, lease renewals offer opportunities for negotiation, and tenants can benefit from expert representation to secure better terms and concessions. 
  • Having an independent real estate advisor specializing in healthcare is essential for reviewing leases, evaluating market conditions, and negotiating on behalf of the tenant. 
  • Hiring an expert healthcare real estate advisor can save healthcare providers significant amounts of money over their careers by ensuring they get the best possible terms on leases and purchases.
  • When considering purchasing a practice with an existing lease, it’s crucial to have the lease reviewed by an expert to understand the terms and potential for renegotiation.
  • Triple-net leases, where tenants pay a portion of operating expenses, can be challenging to negotiate, but an expert can help analyze the expenses and identify areas for potential savings.

Resources:

  •  
  • Follow CARR on LinkedIn.
  • Explore the CARR website
  • Visit Secure Dental’s website and learn more about them!  
Categories
Podcast

Resilience and Revolution: Transforming Dental Implant Success

Summary:

From navigating intense surgical training to developing cutting-edge AI solutions, this conversation reveals a remarkable journey of innovation, perseverance, and redefining success in healthcare.

In this episode of the Secure Dental Podcast, a renowned oral and maxillofacial surgeon and founder of WiseImplant, Dr. Dan Kopeliovich, talks about his professional journey, including his education and training in maxillofacial surgery, his experiences with challenging work environments. After relocating to Washington, DC, he founded WiseImplant, an AI platform designed to help oral surgeons improve implant success rates by analyzing data from patients, implants, and surgeons. Dr. Kopeliovich explains how the platform operates independently of implant manufacturers to ensure unbiased results and aims to enhance implantology outcomes through real-time insights. He currently works at a high-end dental clinic in Cancun, Mexico, where he performs advanced surgeries for international patients.

Tune in as we explore an inspiring journey filled with personal insights on innovation, overcoming challenges, and redefining success in healthcare!

Secure Dental_Dr. Dan Kopeliovich: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental_Dr. Dan Kopeliovich: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hey, hey! Welcome everyone, again, back again to our Secure Dental podcast, where we bring in many different talent from the dental industry as well as from outside. And today, we have a great, great treat here for you guys. I have a special person, Dr. Dan Kopeliovich. I hope I said it right.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
That's the right way.

Dr. Noel Liu:
There you go. And Dr. Dan is from Israel, Tel Aviv. He is an oral maxillofacial surgeon and founder of WiseImplant. Now, before we get started, I just want to give a shout-out to our sponsor, DentVia. DentVia is a virtual dental administration company that supports our front desk, our managers, all the back-end tasks, such as insurance calling, verification, call leads, etc., to help supercharge our front desk in our dental offices. So visit them at www.DentVia.com. Again, it's www. D E N T V I A.com. Now, let's get to the show. Dr. Dan, tell us a little bit about how you got started, and give us a little bit background about what you did in Israel.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
First of all, I know I'm really excited to be here. And, you know, I feel like a 16-year-old before a new date.

Dr. Noel Liu:
There you go.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
All the flight and fight symptoms and dry mouth and stuff are really excited and happy to be here, and it's really exciting. So, and it's a much honor, you know, especially after completing my high school in Israel, the course of slice of life is a bit different. I did my military service. I was an officer in a combat unit. And then, I went to find myself in South America for around a year. So, essentially, around '22, '23, I decided to start learning something, and the, but there was a problem. I wasn't a good pupil in high school, so my grades were. And how to say it, not the best in the class, more of the less than average. But we have really good courses in Israel that a pre-academic in the university itself. And I went to one of these programs, and they, I finished it for one year. And this way, I managed to enter the dental medicine faculty, and I finished it in the Hadassah in Jerusalem, Israel, in the Hebrew University. And then, I won't lie, I didn't connect to the general practitioner or the general dentist's work. It was really hard for me. I know something with my maybe perfectionism or, I don't know, something didn't work out, like trying to do a crown for 2020 or something. I will say, it was awful. And I was thinking to myself, I'm trying to be short. Yeah, but it's a long story. I was thinking to myself, okay, what am I doing? I'm doing with my life. I, already almost 30, I don't know if I want this career in dentistry. And I knew that I like endo and surgery. And essentially, after I told myself, okay, Take a year to work in dentistry and then decide if you quit and go find another career, or if you go on this route and everything will be okay.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, how old were you? You were 30 at that time?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Yeah, I was already 30. Now, in America, it's already like, really old person.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, no, no, no. ... School. Okay. Love it.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Essentially, I said to myself, okay, give it a chance for one year, and I worked in Syria and say, okay, no way. There is no chance I'm ... going to different career. I know medicine, maybe different stuff in computers, because I always liked computers as well. And essentially what happened is that I got accepted to a residency, maxillofacial surgeon. I tried to get to different residencies, and then I got to a residency in Ashkelon. It's a place led by a then professor .... He was a pioneer in salivary glands and endoscopy, and he has a brand name in this area. So I went to be.

Dr. Noel Liu:
What's his name again?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
O... N...

Dr. Noel Liu:
N..., okay.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Yeah. He is a brand name in the, in this area of endoscopy, of salivary glands.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Gotcha.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
And I started residency there and, you know, as soon as I started the residency, it suddenly like, like the sun struck me, and I was so happy. You know, I'm doing surgery. I'm seeing the patient, I have connections. Although it's really hard work, you know, with the shifts and the stress in the surgery, I liked it. I got really immediate satisfaction from the profession. And I knew, I knew, I'm in the right place. And in Israel the residency is a bit different. It's five years, not four like in the US, and you don't get a medical degree. And I knew I knew immediately that I want to go to a fellowship. And this is the reason why I pursued for medical degree as well after the residency. So think of it. I'm, I'm already like, after residency and I'm going to be a student of medical degree. And it was very awkward with the people, but I had fun with this. The only problem was that I had to already, to bring salary to my family and, you know, feed my kids. And so I had to also be a student in the morning, and in the afternoon, and the night shifts, as a maxillofacial surgeon. So, it was a very challenging era, but I managed to finish it. You know, I'm not a spoiled guy. I'm doing everything the hard way. I hope the audience understands me with the accent and my English.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, no, no, you're doing great. You're doing great. I just want to get a little timeline from you. So you finished dental school at, how old were you at that time when you finished your dentist, your general?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
I finished my dental school at the 30, around 30. And then I went to residency, and then I worked for one year, and then I started a residency for five years, and then, I'm trying to cut stuff in the middle, like, different stories that happened. But ... essentially, I finished the residency in 35, and then I started medical school. It's around four years. You have also an internship in the hospital. So it's like three years studying and then another year of internship. And this is the shortest program for maxillofacial specialists. So I finished this program and then I tried to pursue a fellowship in the United States. I did a couple of mistakes. I don't know if I should tell them, but I rejected a very generous offer that would maybe make my life much easier.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right, right.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
But I reject from a really good maxillofacial program to be like to come and do a third and fourth year, a chief, a senior, and chief. And I was stupid, you know, I was a bit tired from the studying, and I wasn't prepared to start immediately, and they wanted somebody immediately. So then, I tried to find a real fellowship program, and I found this program in, in Baltimore, University of Maryland, had a neck surgery, a really hard program. I know it's hard and every aspect, but I didn't know how hard it would be. Definitely one of the hardest things I did in my life. Not because the surgeries or the hard work that was expected from me, but it was harder because of the toxic work environment that I was seeing there. So I really.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Lots of politics, lots of politics, like basically, right?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Yeah, it was really, really, really toxic for me as a person because I don't want to go into it, but.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, that's fine. That's fine.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
It was like quite a trauma because I was like a bit in captivity because I moved all my family to the US and I didn't want. Yeah. So we were with, I'm very lucky to have a wife and three kids, and my wife also, I'm really lucky that she accepts all this crazy stuff to do relocation. First relocation, and then, so I will tell about the second relocation. So what happened is that I was a bit in captivity because I couldn't quit to go, because I knew that I need to transfer my kids back to to Israel again in the middle of the year. And I didn't want to do that. So I said, okay, I'm never giving up, you know? I'll do whatever it takes, but I'm not giving up. I didn't give up. I finished this year, and we, I know, like, divorced from the school. Yeah, so I finished one year. It's, it can be 1 or 2 year program. I finished one year. And then, I started a bit of a rehabilitation program for myself. I was sitting in Washington, DC, where I lived with my family, and thinking, what should I do next? And then I started my startup, WiseImplant. This is the place that I really decided that I want to pursue as part of my rehabilitation program, from the heart, ... I had, yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So I want to know something, right? What was one learning thing that you had from that experience at that university? So that university you were like you said, it's toxic. Was it because you were burnt out? Was it because you did not really fit into the culture? Was it the people there? They had like different school of thought, like what was the thing that you felt?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
I will tell you, I knew, I'm going to a toxic environment before because I talked with the other. I talked with the previous fellows. But what happened? I said, you know, I'm a nice guy, so I never had a place that people didn't like me, you know, I never encountered it. And suddenly, in the first or second week, I understand that the, I won't be specific about what were the problems, but I understand somebody doesn't like me in the first week. In the second week, I understand they really doesn't, don't like me. And the third, or about a month later, I said, okay, I think he hates me. And then I said to myself, okay. But as I mentioned before, I had to finish the year, so I stuck it out.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You stuck it out. That's the biggest thing that matters, you know, like trying to stay consistent.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
And it was it was physically very tough. Very tough physically. I lived in Washington, D.C., and I was doing the commute every day at 5 a.m. to Baltimore. But I knew that, for me, I don't mind to suffer, but I wanted my family to have a really good environment and very friendly, of course, school and the environment. So I knew there is an Israeli community in Rockville, in Maryland, and so I put my family there. This is what my house and I was commuting. So also the, all the surgeries and all the 12 hours, 14-hour surgeries, all the stress, all the stuff together, and I was also commuting. It was a heck of a year, and so, yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, absolutely. I can only imagine.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
... Behind me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You left Israel, you left home, you relocated yourself, you relocate your family in a new country, in a new place. I mean, that's relentless, man. That's like being, it was really relentless.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
And, you know, I'm not a very verbal guy, you know, and just recently, like one of my kids was diagnosed with verbal dyspraxia. And then, when he was diagnosed, I said to myself, wait, wait, wait, wait, let's see the symptoms. You know, how do you how do you diagnose it? And then, you know, I'm thinking to myself, I check, I have another check, I have another check, I have that, and then you figure out, okay, all your life you have this difficulty with the conversation and the verbal verbalism. And then you understand that the, you manage to overcome this also. So on one hand it's a, it's very, you know, gives you energy. You can overcome everything, you know. But on the other hand, it's hard. You know, when I'm talking with you, I know I could talk much, much like 100 times better if I didn't had it. Like, you know, the problem with it is to find the right words. The drawing of the words is really, really, really hard for me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You're doing great, my friend.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Yeah, I'm trying to overcome. Yeah, I'm trying to compensate with different stuff, you know?

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, you're doing great, man. You're doing great. So, right now, so you found WiseImplant, right? So WiseImplant, it's something where it's an implant company. And I know, like, for a fact that Israelis are really good with implants. You know, like most of the components that I've noticed.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
So I will, I'll try to explain because it's not a real implant company, especially in like elevator pitch WiseImplant is a platform for implantology for oral surgeons that want to make their success rate higher.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Okay.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
It does so by our platform, that is, takes data from different sources, lots of data, analyze it with our AI algorithms, and produce your results and gives you, I will explain later, but it gives you essentially three, and based on three different pillars, it gives you what you can change and how you can make your success rate in implants higher. So this is the idea underneath of WiseImplant, and it's only the beginning. So my vision is going really far away.

Dr. Noel Liu:
What I would like to know from you is, how did you come up with this idea of finding an implant, okay, and what was the spark?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Okay, the spark was, I won't lie to you. After the residency, I started doing implants so that implants, implants, implants. Because this is the bread and butter for oral maxillofacial to implant to get, you know, to get the salary and make, you know, make your life better. So suddenly, after a couple of months, I noticed that I get failed implants, but really weird ones. You know why they like that 46 implant. It's a lower molar, perfect bone. You can take a student blind, blindness, and he can put the implant in, and it should work. And suddenly, I get cases that are the implants are loose. I take them out, and you know it. It wasn't so easy to see, but I didn't have Excel sheets and stuff that tells me, okay, you have the drop in your success rate. I had a feeling. I don't know how to analyze it. Is it 10%? 50%? It's it's very, very subtle. You know, people don't like to discuss their failures. Everyone, I'm the best, ..., 97.8 success rate. Everything is 99% success rate. Everything. Also, you know, in the, it's funny in the head and neck surgery. So when they giving the presentation, yeah, we have 99% rate success rate. We have 90%. So I learned when somebody tells you I have 95% rate success rate and above, you should start thinking, okay, maybe there is some kind of bias, maybe there is some kind of an analytical problem there. I don't believe it. Also, how do you say what is a success rate? My view is that, you know, it's different. The literature has some success with different criteria. You get lost in it, you know, so I'll go back to the story. I have this drop in the success rate very sudden, and I want to discuss with people. And usually, people don't like to discuss. But after a couple of months, I found this in a convention. I find this periodontist. And he said the, I told him, you know, I have a drop in my success rate. I had it for two months, and it disappeared, and it's really great. And he said to me, and I had to think the same thing when it did happen. And then we, we saw it, it crossed in the same timeline. And then I asked him what brand, and he said the same brand I was using. I was saying, okay, what if not? And then and then we said, okay, this is interesting. It might be the implant. Now then, I started doing some research, and the implant companies, they don't like to give you the data. They know. Usually, they know because they have the system that you give back the implant and get a new implant, right? But they don't they don't give you the data. They don't, they don't. They advertise their oh, we have a drop of 2.5% in success rate in this slot, and this slot is 5% less. No, they'll never do that. So this is the basis for my idea of doing a system that would give all the implantology, the data regarding the implants. But then it evolved, and I have a system that is based on three different pillars: the patient, the implant, and the surgeon. And it analyzes each pillar and gives you a lot of feedback for each pillar. For example, the main two pillars that we are working with are the surgeon and the implant. The implant itself, you know if there is a, it can give you like a real-time analysis if there is a problem with any lot or in any model for the surgeon. It can give it a like also alert. You know what, you have a problem in maxilla in women in the right side. And then, surgeon can start and think, why? Why do I have this problem in the right side of the maxilla? And then you can say, okay, maybe I'm pressing more. I'm drilling in a different protocol. So, this system is essentially targeted to give conclusions and asking the question for each one of these pillars.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, in terms of your WiseImplant, what stage is it in now?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Right now, so we are fortunate enough to have a, we planned until the end of the quarter to have one design partner. Currently we have two DSOs that we are in connection. And the, in communication to start a process to enter the, our system to the DSO, we are always open for others, you know, and we're developing it to be also connected with DSO. We did a little bit of a change six months ago, and this is the reason we took a step back because we decided to go only with the DSOs.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, okay.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Yeah, yeah, at least in the beginning, until we have enough data. So we are now in the process of entering a stage with 1, 2, or 3 DSOs, and then, we'll be ready to get more and more DSOs. And then, in the end of the road, also clinics and the private practices, of course. Of course, this is one of the, our goals. I hope this in the next year.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Where are these implants made? Yeah.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Noel, so maybe I didn't explain myself well. We are not an implant company. We are a company that, or a startup that analyzes the data.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Analyzes, gotcha. Okay, okay.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
... Analyze all the data that we get from the different locations. We analyze all the data. And you get like all the data analyzed by our AI algorithms, and you get different maps. For example, me as a surgeon, I get all, I get my benchmark compared to other surgeons. Yeah, not, of course, everything is totally anonymized, and I think even the data that comes to our system is totally anonymous. But our system is a data system that analyzes the data and gives you insights, AI insights, and all data, but not only your data. All surgeons that work with the system and also different data from different sources.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. I mean, you know, a lot of times, you don't know why the implant failed, right? So that's a really, really great help. So are you working with like, any implant brand to give the data from?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
No, we don't work with implant brands. And I'll explain you because we don't want to have involvement of this medical industry in our company. Our company is based for doctors and patients to make their lives better. We don't want money. We don't want money. And we don't want data from the implant industry. No, no. It's, totally need to be blocked because we want to be really not biased for the success rate and the quality of the implants. You know, imagine yourself that I can, I'm proving in real life that an implant that costs $400 has the same success rate as an implant that costs $100. So I don't want connection with the industry. I want connection only with the doctors that are implantology that put the implants, and that's it with the patients and make the patients' lives better, you know? Like if you raise the success rate of implant, you know, there is only in the US like 3 million implants a year annually, and you raise it by 1%. It's it's a crazy effect and we can do that. We are definitely there. And in my vision, in three years from now, a patient comes to your clinic, and you ask him, okay, you do all the medical analysis, and he says to you, I'm a diabetic. I had I was smoking seven years ago, one pack. And the system analyzes all the data from the patient and says to, okay, for this patient in the maxilla, you need to take this implant with this drilling protocol, with this amount of newtons of insertion. And you need to wait this amount of time and use this kind of abutment and stuff. So I want the system to be tailored for the patient, for his higher success rate, especially for the complicated all the diabetes and all the smokers and all the patients that has more failure rates, yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, hey, doc, walk me through the process then, how does somebody start this process? Like if they say, hey, I want to see if I can get the data or if I want to tailor it to my needs, what would be the start-up process to get involved?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
We are now in a phase that we are working. We are trying to work only with the DSOs.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right, right. Let's see, if there's a DSO that starts, right, what would be the process?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Yeah, so they can, because I'm the like the founder CEO, and they can contact me, or we are also on a website and or my LinkedIn or the company's LinkedIn or whatever.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Gotcha.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
And we start, you know, some kind of expectations what the DSO wants to expect. We don't sell, you know, everyone that in the industry knows that I'm, it's not my first entrepreneurship. Noel, I'll tell you about, when I was beginning medical school, I developed an app for measuring CBCT ... So many countries don't have CBCT in office, especially like ten years ago, they had CBCT in specialized centers that you send the patient to a center, it takes the x-ray, and you get a report. Usually the report was a PDF, a PDF file. So I developed an app that you take the PDF file and you can do the measurements. You can put the implants and stuff, and I developed it by myself. I didn't have too much time because I also was in medical school, and all of us were working, but it was very, very popular in third-world countries, Yeah, Israel, in Brazil, and the different countries, and really a lot of people used it. So, this is not the first time I'm developing something in technology. So I already have an understanding of this world, you know. And the people are very good in marketing, so I'm not good in marketing. No. And I'm saying that, you know what, you know, the real world, there is also shit in the real world. And I'm saying it in front, you know, and so it's very important for me to speak with the DSO to explain them the system, to see what's their expectations. And then, if it's a match, we can go forward and, and put our platform in their systems, and they see, probably, I hope so, they will be very happy with this. You know, I think that in analyzing the data is a key issue in our world today. And we also have a problem with too much data. And we can, you know, narrow the data so exactly what you need.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, that's great that you clarified because I thought it was a company, right? And so, basically, you are basically just doing the data, so that is so awesome. I don't think anybody else is doing that.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
I never really found a real competitor, like doing the same, right? No, I didn't find it. There is something and then, but it's a bit far. So it's, it doesn't match to what we are planning and what we are doing here. Definitely.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So right now, where are you based? Where are you at?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
... I never know. You're never gonna guess. After I started working on WiseImplant and essentially I'm, I wasn't working and the developing, and then, while being in Washington, I got a job offer at a really crazy place, and, your audience won't guess it, in the real world. So I gathered, I will make it short. I got a job offer in Cancun in Mexico. It's like a high-end dental clinic that treats patients from all over the world, mainly from the US and Canada. They are coming as medical tourism, and I'm here at the maxillofacial to do the bigger surgeries, the bone grafts, the all on four-on-six orthognathics, and stuff like that, and yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So that's really what you do a lot now, right? In Cancun?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Yeah, yeah. And the, mainly, I was tempted by the work-life balance here in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Tell me a little bit about that. Tell me a little bit about that. How's that going?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
I want to speak out too much, you know, not to do, curse my stuff. But I start work at 10 a.m., and I finish, usually no later than 2 or 3.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Yeah? Wow.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
And the environment is really, really nice. My, the founder of the clinic is great. And we are really, you know, working together, and the team there is a great team of a multi-discipline team with a periodontist, endodontist, and everything. And we are, it's really, it's fun and great to work here. And also the fun stuff, you can be with your family, and there are beaches and the attractions that I like it. So I'm really lucky that my wife is going with me on this crazy journey, and this crazy journey, yeah, and relocations.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Yeah. Love it, love it. Hey, listen, man, you went through a lot, right? You came from Israel. You went through that school, and it was brutal. And then you came out, and then you still been like, you know, just, like, consistently hitting it hard. I think you deserve a little break, right? So I love it. Love it. So tell me, what is your future? What is the future for you now? What's next? What's your next chapter?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
I think I'm a, because I have a really good work-life balance here in Mexico, I can have more time to put invest in WiseImplant, and I really want this project to succeed, and this is my main goal to the next year or two. And then, you know, in the future, I don't know, we'll see. Now in Israel, it's a bit of a messy situation, you know, I hope everything will settle down, and I really hope that the hostages will come back home. Two days ago, it was the one year of the war that began, and I really hope that they will have a quieter time. And, you know, that people will have quiet.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Yeah, some tranquility, some peace, right?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Absolutely. Do you still have family there?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Yeah, I have family there.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Okay, okay.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Also all my wife's family there. Yeah, I'm planning to go visit there in December.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Very nice, very nice. Well, you be safe out there. Hey, doc, thank you so much for joining in. One last question I got for you. Since you are one of those relentless people that you know, I know of, and there are very few in the world, by the way, what does success mean to you?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Wow. Now, this is a really, really hard question. Wow. This is.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Define it in your terms. Let's put it that way.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
First, I want to say it's a great question. I think this question has so many layers, so many layers, you know, but sometimes you want to work in your little place and get your salary and be with your family and do your fun stuff, whatever you have. I think for myself, I think the life journey, only the journey itself, it's, if your life you have to say thank you and everything is, every other thing is a bonus. If your kids are healthy and you are healthy, and your family are healthy, it's a success. And I think also it's kind of a graph. You know, sometimes you want to be more active, sometimes you want to be more passive and everything is good. You know, if you like where you are and you have good community, good friends, this is everything. Good family. I think this is the main pillars of life, so.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Success is not being, you know, one thing I will tell you. Success is not chasing publications and chasing gratitude from other people that will ... you and say, wow, you are wonderful. I'm not searching for it. I'm searching to be full in my heart, you know, helping people also as much as they can, and then, and being full with what you do. And I think we are very, very lucky to be able to give like all people in medical profession, you know, nurses, PTs, doctors, everyone, they can give from themselves to others. So I think it's already a success to be able to give to others.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That is such a powerful statement you just said, my friend.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Thanks. I hope it was understandable with my basic English.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, no, absolutely. You know, like, what I always say is, if you have the opportunity to give or you have the opportunity to help, that is an opportunity in itself, and I think that is what you just nailed it in the head, so I love it. And I love the fact too, that you know, you have your family first because without family you're nobody, right? I mean, your family is everything and that is why you work so hard for so.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Yeah. I'm trying. I'm trying to go on. It's not easy, yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hey, thank you so much for coming on my pod. And, you know, this was such an amazing story that I got, you know, you shared with us, so I really appreciate it.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
No, it was, you know, always people saying it was a pleasure and, but really, I was really afraid from the podcast, you know, with my verbal stuff and stuff. I was really like, nervous and it, essentially, it was fun.

Dr. Noel Liu:
It's fun. It's fun, yeah.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
No, but I think you give some kind of environment of tranquility, and don't worry, it will be okay, and I really thank you for that. I had a really good time.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hey, same here! I loved it, I loved every second of it. Thank you so, so much for coming in.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Thanks. Thank you for the offer. Also, I want to thank the listeners for listening. I hope it was interesting. And if you want to, if you have any questions about what is implied about my career or whatever, feel free to shoot me a message.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Absolutely. Any of you listeners, if you are looking for any kind of more information, feel free to DM Dr. Dan. I mean, he's on LinkedIn. Do you have an IG, Instagram?

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
I have something, but I don't think I have it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Don't worry. Don't worry. We'll put up the link below. We'll put up the link. But the best way to reach Dr. Kopeliovich is through LinkedIn, and that is where you're going to find him and also WiseImplant. And if you have any question, DM me. I can definitely get you in touch with him for sure. Other than that, make sure to like and subscribe. We're going to land the plane here. And thank you again so much for being on the pod. Thank you.

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:
Thank you.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Dr. Dan Kopeliovich:

Dr. Dan Kopeliovich is a renowned Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon with dual degrees in medicine (MD) and dentistry (DMD). He specializes in surgical oncology and microvascular surgery and focuses on improving healthcare technology through AI innovations. Dr. Kopeliovich developed the CBCT-Ruler for dental surgeons and founded WiseImplant, an AI platform that enhances implant success and patient safety. Currently based in Cancun, he combines his passion for innovation with providing world-class care to international patients while maintaining a strong work-life balance with his family.

Things You’ll Learn:

  • Resilience is essential in career development, as demonstrated by Dr. Kopeliovich’s perseverance through challenging work environments and tough decisions to achieve his goals.
  • Innovation in healthcare is crucial, illustrated by the development of WiseImplant, an AI platform designed to improve implant success rates through data analysis.
  • Maintaining unbiased data is important, as Dr. Kopeliovich emphasizes the need for his platform to operate independently of implant manufacturers to provide accurate insights for surgeons.
  • Achieving work-life balance often involves personal sacrifices and adjustments, as seen in Dr. Kopeliovich’s multiple relocations with his family for professional growth.
  • Redefining success involves prioritizing health, family, and helping others, reflecting Dr. Kopeliovich’s broader perspective on what it means to succeed.

Resources:

  • Connect with and follow Dr. Dan Kopeliovich on LinkedIn.
  • Explore the WiseImplant website!
  • Visit the DentVia website!
Categories
Podcast

Transforming Dental Experiences into Life Lessons

Dr. Jeff Buske

Summary:

A broken tooth on a first date not only sparked Dr. Jeffrey Buske’s passion for dentistry but also led him to a life dedicated to helping others find balance and success in their personal and professional lives.

In this episode of the Secure Dental Podcast, Dr. Jeffrey Buske, founder and creator of The Limitless Dentist Academy, shares his journey into dentistry and what led him to help other dentists find balance and success in their personal and professional lives. He emphasizes the importance of finding a niche within dentistry, like cosmetics or implants, and gradually transitioning to a fee-for-service model by building a reputation in that specialty. Dr. Buske highlights the dangers of tying one’s identity solely to being a dentist, advocating for a broader sense of self. He also explains how, through his own struggles with stress and burnout, he developed the “Limitless Dentist Academy,” a coaching program that helps dental professionals achieve balance across the body, being, balance, and business.

Tune in and be inspired to achieve balance and success in both personal and professional life!

Secure Dental-Dr. Jeffrey Buske: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental-Dr. Jeffrey Buske: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hey everyone! Welcome to another episode of our Secure Dental podcast, where we bring in many different guests from both inside and outside our dental industry. Today we are joined by a special guest, Dr. Jeffrey Buske. I hope I said it right.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Yeah, it's correct. You're right on target.

Dr. Noel Liu:
All righty.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Good morning. Good morning.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Good morning, good morning. So, you know, before we get started, I'm just going to give a shout-out to my sponsor, DentVia, a virtual dental administration company that administered all the back-end staff staffing stuff, you know, like, virtually for dental offices to equip our front desk and our managers. So, we are called DentVia. I'm a co-founder, D E N T V I A .com. That's again www. D E N T V I A .com. Now without further ado, I got this gentleman here. He calls himself the Limitless Dentist because he helped so many people get out of burnouts. So, with that being said and further ado, hey doc, I'm going to pass it off to you.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Thanks, Noel. I appreciate it, man, and thank you for having me on this morning. I'm excited to share a little bit with you guys and share a little bit of my story, and because I think it can be relatable. Gosh, I've been in dentistry now for 27 years and I still love what I get to do. Noel, you and I were talking for a second, both of us love doing implants, and both of us love doing full arch care, and I think that's also part of what I was put here on this planet to do, which is for me, it's about my purpose is really about what drives me. And my purpose is really about creating transformation in people's lives. It doesn't matter if I'm doing dentistry. It doesn't matter if I'm doing coaching. Sure, that's exactly what I was born to do. I was born to be a divine wrecking ball in some cases, and I was also born to be transformational in other cases. So, it's a fun part of life that I get to have an opportunity to live into. And as I was saying, being in dentistry now for 27 years, I can honestly say I think I've made every mistake possible, and I've been through a lot in our profession. Our profession can be very difficult and it can be very rewarding all at the same time. So, I'm happy to share any of my story with you guys today.

Dr. Noel Liu:
27 years, my man. That's awesome.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So tell me, Jeff, how did you get started with dentistry? We would like to hear that story first.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Well, gosh, it's funny because I grew up in Minnesota, and now I'm in Texas, that's where I practice and live is in Texas. But I grew up in Minnesota, so I grew up playing a lot of hockey, and I was in a high school hockey game, and I was playing hockey, and I got hit probably the hardest I've ever got hit anyway. Nonetheless, I broke my front tooth in half, and that was with a helmet on that was with a mouth guard in. And I remember I had a date that night. It was the first date, by the way, with a girl from another school, and I had half a tooth and I thought, oh my gosh, do I show up? Do I not go? And I thought, well, I might not ever be able to take her out again, so I'm going. So, you know, you've got a 17-year-old kid who's halfway self-conscious anyway, showing up. And anyway, she was like, oh my gosh, what happened? So I told her, and she said, do you still want to go? I said, of course, that's why I'm here. So anyway, we went out, had a great date, but it was one of those things that allowed me to experience what a lot of our patients feel, which is very self-conscious and, you know, kind of embarrassed with their smile and everything. And the artistry that went into the dentist that had to got an opportunity to fix my tooth. It just drew me in. I was like, wow, that is so cool. And it was just like I was just infatuated with the artistic ability for him. I was, you know, because I had the same thing. Our patients think, I hope that they can give me back a smile that I like. And I, you know, my smile was perfect until then, and so I just wanted to make sure it was back. And once he was able to restore that, I thought, wow, what a gift to be able to give somebody, and that was that. So, at 17, that was like it. I knew that's exactly what I wanted to do. I knew that I wasn't going to play pro hockey. I'm only six foot tall and £189 at that time in high school. So I was like, probably not going to go pro.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You rule that out, huh?

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
So dentistry it was, man. It became really clear, though, at that point.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, what dental school did you go to?

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
I ended up going to Baylor here in Texas, and so I stayed and afterwards, and then, gosh, I went to work up in Coppell, which is right outside DFW airport, for a little while and had a great opportunity as an associate up there. And, you know, it was very interesting because that was a time in my life where I had taken so much continuing education, like been through all of Dawson and Eubank and Morley and all these cosmetic guys and occlusion guys. And just like, man, I thought I had everything. And I was like, man, where are the patients? Like, I was literally like eating ramen noodles at night, wondering, can I afford my car payment? And I was like, Holy shit.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So say that again. You were an associate, and you went through all the CE courses because you thought like, this is it.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
This is it. I was like, if I just, if I can have great skills, then everything will just line up. People will just magically come in because my name is out there, and I didn't realize that I had to be a marketer. I didn't realize that I had no advertising. I didn't realize that I had to lead.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
None of that. So, I was left in a very frustrated place. Like, the best way I can describe it now is, like, I felt like the guy who was all dressed up for prom; like I had all these amazing skills but no date. Like nobody to use them on. I was like, I got all this stuff sitting here on the back shelf. Let's go, you know, let's go, and so, I became very disheartened with dentistry. And matter of fact, at that time, I was thinking about walking away from dentistry because I was like, golly, this is just not what I thought it was going to be. I don't know, maybe some of you have felt that way, but for me, that was a reality. I was literally thinking, Holy cow! And it's so funny because there's pivotal people that come into your life at certain aspects and certain seasons at just the right time. I don't think it's a coincidence. I think it's a God thing. And for some reason.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Law of Attraction.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Bruce Baird was writing something on Dental Town at that time, and I was like, and he was writing about like what he was producing and things like that, and it was so far out of my comprehension, and I thought, what in the world? And so I'm going to say something, pardon my language here, so I wrote him a private message. And in my message, I literally said, I said, there's no fucking way you're doing what you're doing, and it can be legal. And he didn't know me from anybody. He could have told me to jump in the lake, whatever. And so he was kind enough to write me back. He said, no, we do this month after month after month. We have systems and processes in place. By the way, where do you? Yes, I said, I'm up in Coppell. And he said, oh my gosh, I'll be over in that direction next weekend at a sleep seminar. And that was when sleep was just on the kind of the leading edge. This was back in 2004. And so he said, why don't we get together and have a cocktail? I said, sure, what have I got to lose? So I went and met him and visited. And, you know, he said, where are you at? And that is such an important it's an easy question to ask, but when you actually sit there and think about it, it made me think. I said, well, where am I at really? And I just leveled with him. I said, am I honestly contemplating leaving dentistry? And so he found out all the continuing education that I did and he just asked me a question. He said, well, do you enjoy dentistry? And I said, yeah. I said, if I go out to practice the way that I'm, you know, wanting to practice, I think I would really love it even more. And he said, maybe you just need the right opportunity. So we decided that we were going to do a practice together, and it ended up getting kind of sold out from under us, and that was okay. But then, a different turn of events happened, and he lost an associate. And so, like within a couple of weeks he called me and said, hey, I have no idea if you have any interest in this, but would you like to come to Granbury, Texas and work with me? Now, that was 72 miles away from where I was living. And I said, you know what? I said, yes, let's do this. And so I went, and then I decided, I said, you know, if I come in there, I don't want to be just another associate. I said, I want to have an opportunity to be a partner. And so we sat down and we worked everything out and then worked through with Cane Waters and got a plan set in order, and then he and I practiced together. We were partners, and then we practiced together for 17 years. And it was, it was an amazing, amazing journey we take together. He was a great mentor, you know, and one of the things that I learned significantly from him was really about integrity, and there was nothing that he said that he promised that he didn't deliver on, which was really important. And so it was something that I get to carry through with our team members. And I think that's just such an important part of life and part of what I teach and coach on, and that's our whole baseline. We call it living by a code and that's, you know, we're not lying. We're not lying to others. We're not lying to ourselves. But more importantly, we're honoring our word. Because just like you, when you're up to big things, there's going to be things that are going to happen that you break your word on, but it's about cleaning it up. It's acknowledging it and getting yourself back in integrity, and making things right. There's still going to be consequences in life, but it's really about getting back in and restoring and re-honoring your work. I think.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's a baseline.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Very important with integrity. And integrity.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Is a foundation for everything.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Yeah. To me, integrity is really is about being whole and complete, lacking nothing, and not hiding anything in the shadows or the darkness. It's really just being full and then wholeheartedly playing all in. So that was my transition into where I am still currently practicing, which is in Granbury, Texas, which is a little bit outside of Fort Worth, about 40 miles west and south of Fort Worth. We live on a beautiful lake here. We get to go play all the time. We love to go wakesurfing and have a good time on the boat with myself, my wife, and the kids. And we enjoy life here and it's a great place to be. Great place to practice. It's fun. You know, I was talking to a doc last night, and he was saying, yeah, I practice in a town that's like 15,000 people, and there's like 4 or 5 dentists here. And he was talking about having to take all these plans and everything. And I started to laugh, and I said, well, I said, let me just paint you a different reality. I said, I practice in a town of 7000 people. And I said, there's over 30 dentists here. And I said, and we take no plans. And I said, and but we learned how to market. And so we draw in people from all over. We bring in people from Dallas and Fort Worth and from sometimes Oklahoma and everywhere. I said, so your reality is what you truly make it. And I said, so. If you're in the mindset that the only thing that you can do is be on plan and boss, which I have nothing against. But I said, if that's your mindset, then that's going to be your mindset. I said, but you do have different opportunities. I'm just going to share with you my story so you can have an opportunity to consider something different. And so just you can see his eyes open up and say, I didn't think that was possible. I said, I'm in a in a town that's half of your size, and this is what we do. I said, it just depends on what you want to do. You can write your own story. That's the big part of it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So I want to spend a little brief time with you on people who wants to go fee-for-service. And there's a lot of them out there. I see it every single time in groups, in different groups. There are like horror stories, and there are success stories. What is the best way? So let's say there's a solo guy working out from his own office, and what is the best way? He's heavily people-involved, man. What would be the best way to transition? Man, I mean, you need to share this nugget because there are a lot of people who are getting burnt out.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
That is such a great question because I will share this with you. Let me back up a second here. I had my practice with Bruce, and then halfway between Dallas and Fort Worth, there's kind of an area called Arlington and Mansfield. And for some crazy reason, I decided I'm going to just open up a scratch practice over there, too, because we serviced a lot of people there, and so I decided that'd be a good idea. Literally, I gave myself a second job, and that also invited in a lot of stress into my world. But opening it up from scratch, I also thought I better put some plans in place and then play over here, and it was kind of funny because I was also marketing. But what was funny is, I was shooting myself in the foot because, you know, I'm taking a 30% haircut at least on some of the plans, sometimes 40% haircut on some of these. And people that were coming in, they're like, oh yeah, we saw your ads and your marketing. And then we saw that you were on our plan. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm just killing myself here, you know? And it was brutal. And I will tell you.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Was this for the new location or?

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
That was for the new location where I've practiced, we've always been fee-for-service, but I thought to get things off the ground, I better.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Did it affect your current one?

Dr. Noel Liu:
No.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Okay, okay.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Because that is 52 miles away, so plenty of distance away, but man, I really learned a solid lesson there. That office was one of the greatest teaching tools for me in all my life because it caused so much stress in my world. I almost ended up divorced. I'll talk about that later. Here we can have another little conversation a little bit. But to answer your question, what I did and I had associates over there running in that office, so I had to build a culture remotely. I'd have practice, I'd have marketing, advertising. I was also taking plans, and it was a very difficult task to establish remotely. I would go over there on Fridays and work one day a week. I would do bigger cases on Fridays for me to do implant surgery and things like that. But after a while it took me a while to establish that and to kind of establish some credibility in that area, and also for me to be able to bring in that type of care. So I think one of the biggest things for a transitional standpoint is really find your lane that you love to practice in and what you love. Maybe it's cosmetics, maybe it's implants, maybe it's clear aligner therapy.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Okay.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Maybe it's sleep, maybe it's in some things. Anything. I think, just aside, you still need your bread-and-butter to always produce and to have that and to pay bills and make sure your overhead is taken care of. But when you can actually start to establish a name for yourself inside of a lane, I think then that is the time to start to double down on your marketing and your advertising in that special area, not just generalized advertising. Like, let's bring in the whole family. Advertising and marketing that is specific for those procedures that you love. Because once you've started to get the skill set required to apply that at an elite or a high level, now you can deliver on that, and now you become marketable. That gives you some ways to start to set yourself apart. If you're not doing anything in that realm and you're just doing general dentistry, and no, there's no offense to that. There's nothing wrong with that. But if you're not doing that, it's going to be very difficult to start to differentiate yourself. You need to have things that differentiate you. Like we've worked with John causes risk factors for so long. And I make that part of my talk when I'm sitting down the first time. And we use that in some of our marketing. We talk about risk factors. Nobody else is talking about that. There might be other people who are doing it, but they don't talk about it. They don't talk about it. They don't market it. They don't advertise about it. You have to find the things that make you unique. Does that make sense? So that's number one.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Absolutely.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
When those individuals are coming into your practice, it is a journey. It is an experience. They're not just coming through as a person that, you know, just coming in. I need a couple things done. You are creating an experience for this person to have everything from the phone call to what happens when they come into your office, the way that they're treated, the way that they're greeted, the way that you occur in their world when you walk in and introduce yourself, and I call it I like to think my mind thinks in frames and frameworks. And so I like to set the frame with the patient. After I greet them, we create some connection. Create three links to a chain that can't be broken. And as far as relationship meaning finding commonalities before we ever talk dentistry, sitting down with them eye to eye, just like you and I are doing. It's just eye-to-eye. Having a conversation, just being with somebody. So like, let me get in there and get in your mouth where I'm comfortable because they're in an uncomfortable place. So, let's get comfortable. Let's get to know each other and let's have a little bit of a human conversation. And then it's time to set the frame along the lines of, like, this is going to be a different experience than you've ever had. So I'm telling them that today, we're going to look at your risk factors. I'm going to analyze things for you. I'm going to tell you whether you're low, medium, or high risk along these areas. And then the greatest thing is, is I'm going to share with you here's things that you can do to lower your risk factors. Here's things that we can do to lower your risk factors. And then together, we're going to co-create a plan that works for you to get you what you want and need and desire. Does that sound good? I mean, it's just so easy.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Conversational. Right.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Conversational. So, to answer your question, I personally think one of the greatest ways to start to wean away from getting off from some of the PPOs is start to get yourself and your skill set up to a very good level, and to where you can have something that differentiates you, and then you've got to be able to apply the marketing, and you've got to be able to be willing to spend the money on the marketing to bring patients in. We usually spend between 8% and 10% on our marketing.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Wow.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
But gosh, when you're bringing in $400,000 or $500,000 a month, you can spend a lot on marketing.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Absolutely.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
And you can market anybody else. That's why it doesn't matter if there's 30 dentists where I live and there's 7000 people. It doesn't matter if there's 50 dentists here. I'm not competing with those dentists. I'm competing with the people wanting to buy a new home, wanting to buy a new vehicle, wanting to take a huge, expensive trip.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's what they are.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Does that make sense? Like I don't care about the other dentists. I mean, it's not that I don't care about them. I should say they're not my competition. Put it that way, so.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
I'm looking at things and I also have a very abundance mindset. That's also a very different perspective. So when you look at moving away from a PPO, to me, PPOs are kind of more of a scarcity mindset. So it doesn't really kind of fit that aspect of it. I'm taking the scraps off from the table of what the insurance is going to feed me. Does that make sense? As opposed to me writing my own story and saying, right, this is what I want, this is what I want for my professional career. This is the type of dentistry that I want to be doing. These are the types of patients that I want to be seen. I want to have happiness and fulfillment and joy, as opposed to the life being sucked out of me and feeling like I'm on a mission.

Dr. Noel Liu:
... for them. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
I think that's one of the problems, is dentists feel like they get on this treadmill and they start running, and they're like, hey, coach, when can I stop? Never, never. And they're on this never-ending treadmill because they're just working themselves to death as opposed to working in a fulfilling purpose, fulfilled practice.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You know what you just said, Jeff? It resonates so much with me because this is exactly what I'm trying to do with my associate dentist. When I'm trying to differentiate them, I try to work with them. Hey, what do you like? You like aesthetics? Let's talk about that. You like implants, or you like ortho, sleep, whatever. But some of them, they are so close-minded, just wanting to do bread-and-butter dentistry day in and day out. And I keep telling them, hey, this is just going to be another commodity. It's just going to get worse as time goes by.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Yes.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Sometimes I think it's just in the mindset like you said.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Because you're trying to differentiate yourself, it's so, so much more work, right?

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Yes, and that's why I said that one simple question that Bruce asked me a long time ago, like, what do you want, right? And not just like right now, but having those docs and you guys who are listening out here, ask yourself that question today, like, what do I really want? Like, if I look at my life now and I look at my life a year from now, and five years from now, and ten years from now, what do I want my career to look like? What do I want to have in life, not just in my dental practice? Because also there's a lot of identity problems. We identify as a dentist. Listen, dentistry is something that you get to do. It's not who you are. It's something that we get an opportunity, I think, an opportunity and privilege to do, but it's not who I am. There is so much more. I'm also a husband. I'm also a father. I'm also a businessman. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm a leader. I'm also a marketer. I'm a closer. I'm all these different things. But I'm also when I start to look at those things, like when you start to get into leadership and things like that. You look at getting into things, into your identity that can't be stripped away. Because I see, and I'm 53, but I start to see in the dentists who, when they start to retire, if that has been their entire identity, they're left in a very difficult place once they walk away from dentistry because they're losing their whole part of themselves. And so when you realize if you tie your identity to things that can be stripped away, you can have a problem with that. I mean, even with some of the things I just mentioned, like as a husband, that could be stripped away if my wife died or decided to divorce me or my kids if something happened to them. All of those things can be stripped away when you start to tie your identity to those things. You have to be careful. That's why you also have to take that identity into deeper levels. Does that make sense?

Dr. Noel Liu:
1,000%. So let's lead right into Limitless Dentist, and let's talk about what's that all about, and how do you help these guys cope with themselves and cope with the environment?

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
That's a great question. And it really has to come back to, as I was saying, I've made many, many, plenty of mistakes in my life. And the practice that I was talking about, it about sucked the life out of me. Creating that scratch practice 52 miles away, as I was saying, and I didn't really have the bandwidth or the capacity at that time to deal with all the stress, because there was financial stress in that. There was managing stress in that. There's leadership stress in that. You've got to cast the vision. You've got to enroll the team in the vision. You've got to create a culture all inside of that. And then you also have to meet expectations and deliver on high levels for patients in order to grow the practice, to get away from me and just to finish up. I then trimmed out plans one at a time. Just cut cut cut cut cut. And then we just transitioned that into full-all fee-for-service practice.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So you didn't do it all at once?

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Not all at once. I cut 2 or 3.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Okay.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
And then boom. And then I cut the next. I only had five, but then I cut. I cut the first, I want to say two, and then I cut the next three at one time. So, boom, boom, done.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Got it.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
But it wasn't all five at once. It was spread out. I want to say it was spread out over about six months.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Perfect.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
And it was great. And, you know, my associates, they knew that was happening and some of them were very worried. Oh my gosh, it's going to hurt. I said, just trust me. Please trust me. You're going to actually make more, and you're going to get paid more because you're going to be paid more for what you're doing, and you're going to love it. And they they all did. They thrived in that manner. So, we end up building up the practice enough to where actually brought in a prosthodontist, and it was perfect for him because he thrived in there. And that's what ended up building the practice there and then sold it to them. So it worked out very, very well, but it was a lot of stress in the meantime. Like I said, I had been divorced already in 2012. I blew out one marriage. So listen guys, dentistry can be very stressful. And I started this scratch practice at the very, very end of 2013, beginning of 2014. By 2016, this had taken such a toll on me because again, I said, I didn't as a, as an entrepreneur, as a businessman, I didn't have the bandwidth or the capacity to manage all of that stress. So I would bring that home, and I would bring it, unfortunately, into my family. And when you take irritation, you don't deal with that. Then, that leads to frustration. And then, when you don't deal with that, then that leads to anger. And then, when you don't deal with anger, and you push that down, then that leads to rage. And rage is not something that we're meant to deal with. So when we push that down comes out, it's like the equivalent of pushing a beach ball underwater and just keep pushing it down further and further. And the more you push that further and further when you release that beach ball, it's going to come up with such velocity and force. That's kind of the way that I think about rage. And when that rage would come out, it would come out with my wife, would come out with my kids. And it generally happens around the people that you love the most. And I would sit there and think, shit, man, I give my patients people that I just met the best of me, and then my family, the people that love me the most, get the worst of me, and that was brutal. That was a brutal truth that I had to come to the realization with. I also, and I'm just sharing it like it is. You guys can look at me and you can judge me, but I'm just telling you the truth.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I want you to say that again, because this is one of those things where I hear it day in and day out. They're like, really grumpy at home but the best version at work.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Yeah, you give the best of yourself to your patients and some of your team. Not always your team, but your patients get the very best of you.

Dr. Noel Liu:
But not your family.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
The worst of you at home to the people that love you.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
And that's just the truth. And matter of fact, as I was building that practice, I looked at my family as getting in the way of my time to build a successful practice. Now, that's difficult to say, but that, again, that's the truth. And so I didn't have the tools to manage the stress at that time. I didn't have the tools. I was starting to feel burnt out. And so the only thing that I really knew to do was to sedate. So I would come home literally every day and just start to drink. I would drink, and I'd pick up my wife, and then she'd have to drink just to deal with my stupid, crazy ass. And it was like we would then just battle about stuff. And it was really sad because, over time, that started to destroy some of what I really love. If you guys watch the picture here, I was headed down towards divorce number two, until one night when my wife and I both had enough to drink, and we were just in this explosive argument, and literally, you know, her words just stopped me in my tracks. And she said, Jeff, I didn't sign up for this shit. And I mean, it hit me like a ton of bricks. Like, boom. Right between the eyes. I didn't even have a response. I didn't know what to say. I didn't have anything to say because it was the truth. And I remember there laying in bed that night and just. I prayed, and I said, you know, God, I realize that I created this mess, but I'm asking you to help me see a way out. Please help me. Please help my family. And it's crazy how things work like that. Didn't ever do anything on social media at that time or anything like that. I had just gotten onto Facebook for some ability to be able to do some marketing and things on there. And like this next week, this crazy thing came across my feed, and it was from a coach and a mentor who I still use. Guys, crazy psychopath named Garrett White. He ran something called Wake Up Warrior. And so I was sitting there, and I clicked on this ad, and my wife was cooking up some dinner, and I was listening to this guy, and it was like he was speaking into my it was like he was inside my head. I was like, Holy shit, this is exactly the way I'm operating. Even my wife, who is cooking. She stopped, and she said, who are you listening to? And I said, I don't know, but this guy has my number, man. And she was like, this is interesting. So anyway, you could click on a thing. And we ended up, she goes, do you want to watch that together? I said, yeah, I think so. So we watched like a 45-minute documentary, and it was basically it was like a video sales letter to come in and have an experience. And she looked at me at the end of it, and she said, you're going to go do that, aren't you? And I said, I think I need to. And she said I think you do too. And so I had no idea what all it was going to entail, what it was going to cost, how much time, what was going to be. And it was like a week-long process. The best way that I could describe at that time, Warrior Week, was it would be like if you took Tony Robbins and then you put together a Navy Seals Hell Week, and then you put together Brad Pitt from Fight Club. That was the combination of what occurred there. And so it was physical beatdown. It was, we were in and out of the ocean doing log PT, all kinds of different shit, crazy stuff, and things, and literally having like full-on boxing battles. It was crazy. But at that time in my world, that's what I needed. Like, I needed to be cracked open that hard in order for that part of me to die and for me to be reborn and come back as a different version to unlock new versions of me. Does that make sense?

Dr. Noel Liu:
1,000%.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
So it unlocked new levels in me that allowed me to come back and show up as a different way, as a husband allowed me to show up as a different way, as a father allowed me to show up completely different as a businessman, as an operator inside my practice. I started to lead in a different way. Why? Because I decided to lead myself in a different way. I started to see myself in a different way, and so, it started to look at moving from a victim mentality and then creating a leadership mentality. And we have a saying that victims wait and leaders create. And so when we start to look at it from that perspective, we start to see, gosh, I'm in charge of my own story. I have self-authorization. I can take and create what I want. And so I'm going to utilize my agency. And when you start to operate that way you start to shift how you occur. You start to shift your energy. You start to take care of like I got my morning. I start working on me early because I want to fill up my cup first so my cup can overflow onto others. If my cup is empty, then guess what? Every interaction that I have with somebody else has to be transactional. Because if my cup is not full, if I give you something more out of it, I've got to get something back. When my cup is plenty full, I can give freely without any expectation in return.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
That's a whole different animal. And I'm setting my own table. I'm not eating crumbs off the floor of circumstance.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Taking charge, right?

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Absolutely. So, out of that, as I was saying, it changed and transformed how I operate and how I occur in life. And from that perspective, now that's what was born with, okay, if this is working for me, I know this can start to work for other guys. So I started to work with some of my buddies and friends, and they were like, Holy shit, this is working great. This is fantastic. And that's when I decided, hey, let's take this to, hey, a lot more professionals inside of our our space need this. So I coach men inside of the space, inside of our dental communities, here, inside of our profession, in order to create synergy and harmony really across four domains in our world. So across our body, our health, our fitness, our being, our spirituality, our purpose, and in my position to God in my life and then also our balance. So, our relationships with our wife, our kids, and in other meaningful relationships to your team members, your friends, your extended family, and then also your business or your practice and your bank accounts. Getting all four of those areas to work simultaneously is huge. Because what I notice, and you might notice this too, most men have maybe one of those areas, maybe two at best. Working simultaneously on fire at one time. The other ones are kind of slacking. Like, man, you may be killing it in your practice, maybe producing like crazy and doing well, but there's also this stress component. So you might eat like shit and eat fast food and then not spending enough time with your wife and kids, and you're like, oh, I've got like, I was doing like, I gotta build my practice. I gotta do this, I gotta do this. I'll get to that later. Well, that later never comes. Or you might be on fire with like, hey man, my fitness is on point, a six-pack. I don't care if you got a six-pack or not. It doesn't matter to me. I want to be functionally fit. I want to have longevity. I want to be able to go outside and play with my kids and have a great time. I want to be able to go out behind the boat and surf. I want to be able to go hike. I want to have functionality in my world. I don't want my body to be deconditioned over time. Dentistry is hard on your body.

Dr. Noel Liu:
1,000% man.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
And if you don't take care of it, it will destroy you, and it will shorten your career so you can have your body on point but then be slacking in other areas, too. So we want to create that harmony around all areas so that you can actually have a life that works, and we call having it all built on the foundation of integrity. Does that make sense?

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it. So Jeff, here's a problem with our profession. Not only our profession, but people in general. We hear great advice. We really want to do it. But there's always this one thing that stops us, which, from taking action when you deal with your clients. How do you make them overcome that procrastination that, hey, I got to do it because if I'm not doing it, I mean, the only shortcut is getting it done, right? We all know it's good for us. We all know about the exercise routine and eating healthy, but why don't people do it?

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Well, I'd say the one way that we get past all that is it starts with you getting honest with yourself. And because if you can tell yourself the truth about where you're at today, then there's a possibility and a future that's available for you and that you can and be willing to chase. But if you bullshit yourself and you lie to yourself, then there's no fucking way on earth. Anybody else, myself, anybody else can included, be able to motivate you to some bullshit existence that, you see?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Nothing's gonna work, right?

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Because now, everything then is built on fiction and fantasy, and that's the way that most of our world operates is in fiction and fantasy.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
And so it starts with getting clear with yourself and telling yourself the truth and looking at the true facts of today. Once that's established, now you can envision a future that is truly possible because it's based in the reality of today. And I think that's one of the reasons that people stay stuck is, is the fact that they're living in fiction and fantasy, and everything that they're envisioning is just this total, other extended version of that fiction and fantasy. And so it just gives them a dopamine hit, and they don't move. They don't take action at all. But when they look at the true reality of where they are today and if they like where they are today, great. There's still another possibility of what's waiting and what can be upscaled and leveled up on the other side of that. So when we look at the possibilities, we start to see, oh, that's available in between. There is where we're at today and where we want to be. Or we can look at it like this: where we are today and where we want to be. And there's always a gap in there. And once we can see the gap of here's where I'm at and here's the new possibility, this is kind of my pit if I'm not loving where I'm at in life. This is my new peak up here. In between there, there's the gap. The gap is scary. And that's why also a lot of people don't want to move because it's like we've never been there. We don't know. We've never been. So it's easy, like, if you look at scale of life on like 1 to 10, and you're like playing at a level one, and you're like, oh shit, life sucks here, man. And somebody's like, hey, just do this and you'll be at like a level three. You're like, okay, let me do that. What's hard is when you're like playing at level six, level seven and life is comfortable, and then you're like, ooh, to get to level ten, I've got to let go. I might even have to put level 6 or 7 at risk to get to level ten. Holy cow! Like with what you guys are doing with real estate and everything like that, you guys do things very calculated, but in some people's minds, it's like, oh my gosh, that sounds going to be risky, right? And so, how do I take that leap of faith? How do I do that? And you have to look at it from okay, what am I letting go of? And what's the new possibility over here? There's always going to be some risk associated with things, but we want to take calculated risk. And guess what? We're not taking the big jump from here all the way to here in one leap, because you'll leap, and then you'll get a little short, and then you'll fall down and then come back and go right back into the comfort zone of where you're where you're loving life, right? So what we look at doing is, hey, what is the best next step that you can take to move forward in that? Let's just take that first step, their first step, to move us forward. I'm not even worried about hitting the home run. Let's just talk about, let's hit singles, man. Let's just hit singles. Singles aren't big and sexy. The home run is big and sexy, right? Let's hit the home run. But that's like making the leap from here to here. Let's just hit singles, and then pretty soon, after four hits, you've got to run. Now, it's not sexy, but it gets results. And to me, results are sexy. I'd rather have results than hey. Oh, that looks so pretty when I hit the ball far, but I got out. But it looked pretty when it came off the back, man. I think getting results that to me is sexy. When you look at my fruit, that's what I like to look at because it comes down to results. That's it. Everything that we're after in life is about creating the journey and after chasing down amazing results that are meaningful to us.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it, man, love it. So, what is the onboarding like, and how can people get in contact with you? Because they probably will have some questions. Okay, if they want to work with you, what does the process look like, and who are your ideal clients? Let's put it this way because you just said, like, you know, you got to stop bullshitting with yourself.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Yes.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right? I mean, would you like, take somebody who is like, still like, kind of like in the zone where they're fantasizing or somebody who's ready to go?

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
That's such a great question. So part of the onboarding process is for me to sit down, and we have a one-on-one conversation for anybody coming into the game with me. It is an interview, and it is an application to come into the program because, A, I want to keep the program operating at a very high level, and B, we don't want to compromise that, and C, I want to see again if you're able to be coachable, because if you can't tell yourself the truth, then there's no way that you can tell anybody else the truth.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Exactly.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
And then there's no way to really, truly coach you. I would be doing you a disservice. That puts me out of integrity. Because if you can't be honest with yourself, there's no way that I can know truly where you're at and where you want to go. And if I can't do that, then there's no way that I can speak into that gap. But when I know and we know together, and we're excited about where we can go now, we can speak into that gap all day now, we can put the frameworks in order to get into work, and now we can go ahead and start to get the results to start to collapse that time to make that happen. So the best way to get ahold of me literally, is just find me on Instagram. It's D R . J E F F B U S K E, so Dr. Jeff Buske. Send me a DM on Instagram. You can also find me on LinkedIn. Jeffrey Buske on LinkedIn, easy to find there. You will find me on both those spots, but that is absolutely the best way to contact me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Perfect.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
As far as the onboarding process inside of there, like I said, we'll go through an interview, sit down and just have a conversation just like this. It's very easy. Just find out where you're at, where you want to go, and if I can help you, and if I can't help you, I'll at least look at it, pointing you in a direction where I think that you can find. I'm very interested in that. But our process is great. It's virtual for most of the learning. We do calls every week on Zoom, and it's with me. And so we're just tearing through things. We set up 90-day challenges and all four of those areas, and we just knock them out and have a great time along the way, and it's an awesome way to live. It's such a unique way to live. I want to throw one last thing in here because I think this is important. When you start to look at we were talking about results and fruit and this just came to mind. So I will tell you guys this with the framework of the core for the body being balanced in business that I was sharing with you, adding in that framework and then the framework of the code by living in integrity, those two things alone, that was it, period. Between 2016, when I started to apply this in my life, and 2021, I went back and ran the numbers because we bought a whole bunch of new equipment in 2022 for all of our full arch stuff; we got all our digital stuff. But between 2016 and 2021, I want you guys to hear this. I bought zero new equipment in my practice, and I didn't change anything about the way that I practiced. I added in no new procedures, no new technology. But check this out. I added an additional, not a total, an additional seven figures to my own personal production because of what I'm teaching, because of the code, because of the core four; those two frameworks alone added an additional seven figures to my production, all because of the way my mindset shifted and my leadership shifted. Our team was so became so powerful. And it, it's just is a culture that is pretty phenomenal and I'm proud of that. But I want you guys to hear that. I'm not saying that in a braggadocious manner, but I want to be able to quantify something for you so you can see, hey, this is possible. Well, is that possible for you? I don't know; I don't know how driven you are. I don't know any of those things. But what if even half of that was possible? What if even 25% of that is possible for you? Would that be meaningful to you? Would that be helpful to help put a kid through college? All of those things start to come into play, and again, without having to buy a $100,000 laser without having to buy, you know, whatever it may be. I mean, the price of equipment keeps going up and up and up as we continue to give our patients the best. Why not give yourself the best, best version of you?

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's one part we all neglect, you know. Yes, that's a fact.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Yes.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And last thing I want to ask you is, what does success mean to you?

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Man, that is such a great question. I love that question because it's different for everybody, right?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right. It's totally your version.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Yeah, for my version, it is truly measured with my happiness and joy and waking up to a life that I am happy with. That, to me, is success. And so when I can wake up, and I'm happy with where I'm at professionally, where I'm at in my marriage, my marriage is on fire and not burning down on fire in a great way with my wife and having great relationships with my kids. Man! And my health is great. My connection with God is great. When those things are on point, that, to me, is success. And that also, as success increases, that gives you freedom. And so that's I think what we're also all after is freedom.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it. Hey doc, thanks a lot. So much for coming on, man.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Yeah, it was fun, man. I appreciate it. It was a good time. I enjoyed getting a chance to visit with you. And thank you to the listeners, and hopefully, something that I said was going to be useful for you guys. If it sparks a conversation, I'd love to have a conversation with you and see if there's something that I can help you with.

Dr. Noel Liu:
100%. I learned a lot, too, so I mean, that was really insightful. Well, thank you.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
Yes, absolutely. Thanks for having me on as a guest, Noel.

Dr. Noel Liu:
All right. Well, ladies and gentlemen, thanks for joining. Make sure to like and subscribe now. We will land our plane and check out our next episode. We all know where to reach Jeff at and I will definitely put the link down below. All right. Thanks, Jeff.

Dr. Jeffrey Buske:
See y'all.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Dr. Jeffrey Buske:

Dr. Jeffrey Buske has been practicing dentistry for 26 years, specializing in implant and full arch dentistry. Seven years ago, he faced a significant personal and professional crisis but made transformative changes that have profoundly altered his life. Today, he is the founder and creator of The Limitless Dentist Academy, which aims to reduce stress, overwhelm, and burnout among dentists by promoting a challenge-based lifestyle that fosters peak performance and limitless potential. As a mindset coach, Dr. Buske provides male dentists with practical frameworks to achieve freedom and success in their careers.

Source

Things You’ll Learn:

  • Dr. Jeffrey Buske’s entry into dentistry was driven by a personal experience with a broken tooth, which deepened his empathy for patients’ self-consciousness about their smiles.
  • Specializing in a specific area of dentistry, such as cosmetics or implants, is crucial for building a strong reputation and transitioning to a fee-for-service model.
  • Tying one’s identity solely to being a dentist is risky; maintaining a balanced sense of self that includes both personal and professional growth is essential.
  • Transformative programs can help overcome stress and burnout, leading to the creation of strategies for helping others regain balance and achieve personal growth.
  • Success could defined by waking up to a life filled with happiness and joy, a principle that can be shared with others through effective coaching.

Resources:

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The Hidden Cost of Perfectionism: How to Reclaim Joy in Dentistry

Podcast Cover Photo with Dr. Noel Liu, DDS titled "Reclaim Your Joy"

Summary:

Burnout can manifest as both physical symptoms and emotional exhaustion, making it crucial to recognize and address it early on.

In this episode, Dr. Eric Recker, Owner and CEO of Win The Now,  shares his personal journey through burnout and how he overcame it. Dr. Recker recounts his early experiences of feeling inadequate, which fueled a relentless drive for perfection in his career and personal life. This drive eventually led to severe burnout, characterized by physical symptoms and emotional exhaustion. After nearly selling his dental practice to escape the stress, Dr. Recker realized that running away wouldn’t solve the problem. Instead, he made significant changes, including selling half of his practice, reducing his workdays, and focusing on coaching and speaking about burnout and mindset. Throughout the interview, Eric emphasizes the importance of recognizing the signs of burnout, such as a lack of joy in daily activities and a sense of life becoming monotonous. He discusses how mindset and small, significant changes in daily routines can help combat burnout. Finally, Eric explains why he now dedicates part of his time to coaching other dentists, helping them identify the root causes of their burnout and develop strategies to regain control and find fulfillment in their lives.

Tune in and learn why seeking help from a coach or mentor can provide the guidance and support needed to navigate through burnout!

Secure Dental-Eric Recker.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental-Eric Recker.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hello. Hey, welcome everyone back to our Secure Dental podcast, where we bring in many different talents from both inside and outside our dental industry. Today we have a very, very special guest, Dr. Eric Recker. And Dr. Recker is practicing Dentist in Iowa. So before we dive into his details and his great story, I would just like to give a shout-out to my sponsor, which is DentVia. DentVia is a virtual dental assisting company that, you know, does all the back-end stuff, and they basically help the front desk office manager to take care of calls, scheduling, you know, like marketing leads and all that good stuff, all the front desk people they hate to do. So they do all the back end stuff and they help with our front staff. So definitely visit them at www.DentVia..com. That's DentVia.com. Now, let's get to the show. So I got Dr. Recker here. He is a motivational speaker, a dentist that practices in Iowa, and he has a great, great story to share with us. I'm not even going to try the intro. I will just let Dr. Recker go ahead and introduce himself, and just tell us a little bit about his history and how he got started. So, Dr. Recker, the floor is all yours.

Eric Recker:
Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Liu. I'm really excited to be here today. I can tell you the short version of my story. It'll only take about four hours. And so we'll just do that, and by then everybody will be well asleep and we'll have four episodes recorded, so we'll be all set. Right? I've been a practicing dentist for 22 years. So I graduated in 2002 from University of Iowa. But I have to go back way farther than that. So when I was in second and third grade, I was a little rough around the edges. I was a little husky, you could say. I was one of the youngest people in my class and where I grew up in central Iowa, recess kickball was life in the early 80s. And so at recess, we would go out and we'd form teams and we'd play kickball. Well, I was told that I wasn't good enough to play. It would have been one thing if I was picked last. But the problem was, I was told that I wasn't even good enough. So I would have to sit there and watch the people in my class play kickball while I stood on the sidelines. Well, after this happened enough, I remember steaming on the sidelines saying, I am going to be so good at everything I ever do in my life that no one's ever not going to pick me. Well, guess what that led to? It led to burnout, and it led to burnout in a huge, huge way. So what happened is everything in my life was not good enough. It wasn't good enough that I was in the top 15 in my dental class. I had to be in the top ten. It wasn't good enough that my practice was cranking. It had to crank more. It wasn't good enough that I was starting to run. I had to do more than that. So I went all the way through Ironman triathlon, mountain climbing; all this kind of stuff. And what it really led to was burnout. So pretty serious burnout. I had three what I would consider big seasons of burnout, where I had chest pain, heart palpitations, panic attacks, all that stuff, which ultimately led me to nearly selling my dental practice and walking away. The problem with that is that I would have just been running away from the burnout. And so when that fell through, I had to figure out what I really wanted to do with life. That was in 2021. And now at this point, I now have a partner in my dental practice. I've sold half of my practice, so are 50 over 50 partners. I see patients three days a week, and on the other days I coach and speak to people and groups about mindset, burnout, self-care, self-awareness, all of those kinds of things. So I'm in a great space right now, but it's been quite a road to get here.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's such an amazing story. So how old were you when you first realize that okay, they keep saying, I'm not good enough; what I got to do, I got to be the best? Like, what was the age frame?

Eric Recker:
So the first time that I said that out loud and it's something that was, I guess, hidden in my subconscious somewhere, because I only remembered it a couple of years ago. But it started in elementary school when I was standing there saying on the recess playground, believing that I wasn't good enough. And I just, I heard those words all the time. Anytime I would get a grade back that wasn't as good as I had hoped it would be: You are not good enough. Anytime I wouldn't be able, anytime I wasn't as good athletically as I wanted to be: You are not good enough. And I just heard it, and I heard it, and I heard it. And I think so many of us have those things that were said over us when we were younger that impact the way we live our lives and the way we do our daily living. And those things need to be identified, and they need to be retired and they need to be replaced with something that's much more productive.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So would you say that was an emotion that actually got you fired up? And if that was the emotion that got you fired up, I mean, how did you figure out that was defined as a burnout?

Eric Recker:
Yeah. So it took a long time. I had to go through the burnout. And what would happen is every time I would get burned out, I felt like something was missing. So I'm obviously, doing something wrong. Something's missing in my life, so I have to add something. Well, that was part of the problem. I kept adding more and more things. So my first real season of burnout, the one that I really, now, in retrospect, I know that's what it was, I was buying my dental practice from my father. I was building a new clinic. I was coaching both of my kids in soccer. I was on five different boards. And I was training for two Ironman triathlons. I mean, that's crazy, right? Who does that? That is way, way, way too much. But like the frog that gets put in the water and then the heat is turned up, I didn't realize until it was too much. So what I've realized is when we really get to that burnout space, oftentimes we have to look at everything that we have going on in our lives, and instead of adding something else, something needs to go. So what are all the things that are going on in our lives, and how can we look at all of those objectively and say, Okay, might feel like something's missing, but really something probably needs to go. And that's kind of where I got to.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So when you speak to people and when you identify their issue, or they ask you to help them identify, what are some of the traits or some of those things or patterns that I would say that you look out for, like if somebody is about to enter like, you know, burn out phase?

Eric Recker:
Yeah. One of the things that I've definitely noticed, and it was very true in my life as well, now that I look back on it, is life just kind of seemed gray. It didn't seem like there was a lot of color in life. A lot of the things that gave me a lot of joy weren't giving me joy during that season. I was kind of pulling back from things. I was feeling very introspective with my thoughts. I wasn't doing a great job communicating with my wife. I was holding it, trying to hold it all together and holding it all in. So if the things that used to excite you aren't exciting you anymore, what's going on with that? We probably need to pull the thread on that. One of the examples that I like to use for this is the movie: The Secret Life of Walter Mitty. We're big movie fans at our house, and what happens in this movie is the main character, Walter, lives a very grey existence, and the cinematography in the movie is masterful. And it just shows everything's grey, it's dull, it's monotone. He's not living a very exciting life, but as the movie goes on, the colors start to appear, adventure starts to appear, he starts stepping into exciting things and his life goes from grey to extremely vibrant. So noticing the grayness, like you wake up every day and it just feels the same. You go to work with kind of a low level or a high level angst towards your job. You can't get excited about things. You also maybe don't get as bummed about things. You're just kind of hanging out in that middle space, and that's a good reason to start sounding an alarm.

Dr. Noel Liu:
How much of it do you feel, its internal mindset, and how much do you feel like it's external?

Eric Recker:
Yeah, so I think a lot of it, a lot of it is internal. It really is. We get into these patterns, and Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Whether that quote is actually his or not, doesn't really matter. But we keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect things to change. So if something's not working, how can we switch that up? What can we add? What's a little thing that we can add to kind of disrupt the routine? Sometimes it's as much as changing our drive home from work. Maybe it only takes us five minutes to get home. What if we, and that's my situation. If I drive to work, it's only about five minutes to get home. Sometimes that's not enough. I have another route to get home that takes me more like 20 minutes. And sometimes once in a while we just need to do that and roll the windows down and let the breeze blow through and just be quiet and experience the moment. So what are some things if we're feeling life is grey, how can we add some colour to our lives? Can we add an ice cream date with our family at the end of our work week to celebrate that we made it through another week? Can we have a phone call with a good friend? Can we reward ourselves with a little bit of time to just listen to music, or just hang out for a little while without anything to do? What are some of those things we can do to add a little color in our life? There's always going to be external pressures; we're not always going to be able to control those. But if we work on the things that we can control and influence things like our mindset, our habits, our routines, then we're much more likely for the rest of it to work well.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's amazing what you just said, because I believe strongly that that pattern that we have daily in our lives, it's got to be switched up. It's like working out at the gym, right? It's like you always have to have different routines. And what you just said, it just kind of resonated a little bit. So tell me something here. When you found out that you were burnt out and you kind of switched your mindset and now you started seeing things differently, was it one event or was it like a series of events that kind of got you to where you are today?

Eric Recker:
Yeah. So one of the reasons I am so passionate about helping other people is I went really far down that burnout journey, really far down it. And I believe if I hadn't done something about it, that there is a chance I might not be alive today, or there's a chance that at some point my life would be cut short because of the amount of stress that I had. So that's why it's something needed to happen. I mean, burnout almost made me sell my dental practice because I couldn't figure out any other way around it. I just figured that I had to leave it, and that's a pretty scary thought. And from talking to other dentists, I know that I am not the only one that is thinking right now. Man, this mountain of getting to a point where I actually enjoy my practice; that mountain's just too high. I never going to get to the top of that. I'm never going to get to the point where I enjoy what I'm doing. Well, yeah, you're never going to get there if you don't take the first step. So I went so far down that that it almost took me out. And boy, if I would have sold my dental practice and walked away, I don't know what the heck I was going to do. What was I going to do with myself? The burnout was going to follow me; that's the really tricky part. The burnout was going to follow me. It was going to be there wherever I was, and it was going to show up in different ways. So because I went through all of that, I thought, okay, I'm not alone here. I need to go to work figuring out what are the steps. How can we stop this along the way? How can we help other people move forward? And how can I really make a big impact? Because that's what I want to do. I love my practice. I love my patients. I love the relationships I've built with people over 20-plus years. That's amazing. But I believe that because of my burnout journey, I was made to leave a bigger impact, maybe on the dental community as a whole, or maybe just on different practices where people are going through those same issues. So I'm in that space where I'm fortunate to get to do both of those, but it's because I've done a lot of work trying to figure out, okay, what are other dentists struggling with? Wow, they're struggling with a lot of the same things that I was struggling with. Okay, how can we help people create a life that they don't want to get away from? That's really what motivates me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it. Love it. You know, there's a subsequent questions that I would like to ask you. It's a two-part question. Number one is: What are you doing now to help dentists get out of burnout? And number two is: Once they identified some of the actionable items by hearing this podcast, what can they do like right away?

Eric Recker:
Yeah. So one of the things that I'm doing for dentists is one-on-one coaching. The thing about being a dentist is it can be very lonely, especially if you are a solo practice. If you own a practice by yourself, you have teammates, but there's a hierarchy there, and you can't share everything with your hygienist, or you can't share everything with your assistant. It's just, we don't feel comfortable doing that nor is that their burden to bear. Or even where I was, I had two dentists that worked for me, but I was the owner and it was, it felt very isolated at the top. So what I like to do is come alongside people as an ally, kind of a, Hey, you are not alone. Here's somebody else who's walked this journey. Let's see if we can walk it together and help you be able to come up with some better systems and habits and routines so that you can feel better so that you can feel like you're not alone, so that you can feel like you have a plan going forward. And yeah. And so people who are listening to this and hearing some of the actionable steps, I love the phrase small but significant. It's one of my favorite phrases. So oftentimes we can go to a dental CE class and okay, what are we going to implement? Oh man. We learned all this stuff. We got to implement it all Monday morning and our, we come back and our team's teams like, Oh my gosh, he's going to bring all these new ideas. And, you know, just leave him alone for a little while. He'll, it'll pass, and we'll get to move forward. Yeah. Right? Because I know you've been to a class before and you're like, I'm going to implement all this stuff and I'm going to do all these things. And then Monday morning hits and we're like, right back to the grind and oh, great idea, but that's not going to work for me. So when I say small but significant, what I mean by that is you can't cure burnout by snapping your fingers. You just can't. It's a process. It's a journey. And we also want to create things and add things into our lives that help it to not come back. So what is one small but significant thing you can do today to push back the hold of burnout in your life? What is one small but significant thing you can do in your routine to switch things up to maybe make a change a little bit? I always come to work at ten till eight. I always feel fried when I come in there and then I'm ready to go I feel like I'm, but I'm behind the eight ball every time. Okay. Would it be better if you came in at 20 till eight and you had a chance to maybe review and do a couple things before you started your day? Man, I always worked through lunch and I'm always shot at the end of the day. Okay, what if you took 15 minutes of that lunch period, that lunchtime that you have, and you just sat at your desk and you closed your eyes? What if you tried that? So that's what I'm getting at. I'm always trying to help people do that. And some people think, well, I don't have a clue. What are the small but significant things I can do? Well, one thing that I have on my website is a five-day knock-back burnout challenge because I know so many people are facing this, and it's basically five steps that you can take towards easing the hold of burnout in your life. And then at the end of that, I talk about some options of coaching. If you want to work, see if we can have a call and see if I might be a good fit to help walk alongside you. But I'm somebody who believes in giving out a lot of resources. So there's several things available on my website, ways to help take care of yourself. I have a newsletter that I put out: Three Ways to Win. Just lots of great resources because I want to help. I want to be a part of the solution for sure.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, that's great. We'll definitely share the link to your website as well as all your resources. That'd be awesome. How long does a journey take, like for someone in your, you know, experience that who you've helped like in the past? Like let's say you got started with them on a coaching program. Does it vary by individual or is there like a specific time goal that you give your clients?

Eric Recker:
Yeah, that's a great question. There's a couple different paths that we can take. There is a three-month version coaching package that we use sometimes, and basically in that we meet ten times. And what we do is we get clear on what you want, and then we work on some systems and habits to get you moving forward. Typically what happens is people want a little more than that. They want to go a little bit deeper and not only have that initial coaching relationship, but kind of an ongoing mentorship slash coaching. And then after that, oftentimes we'll just meet once a month going forward. So that would be more like a year package. So we'd meet fairly intensely for those first three months, once every week or every other week, and then the rest of the time it would just kind of be monthly check-ins, seeing how everything's going, and then adding in some new strategies as we go along. And I have one person that I've been working with for about two and a half years right now, and she just needs that ongoing check-in, and I'm happy to provide that. So it's different for everybody. It really depends what you want to get out of the relationship.

Dr. Noel Liu:
It's such a great service you're providing, doc. I mean, honestly, before you know, you and I, we met I used to hear about burnouts, but, you know, it was always like something in the back of my mind. I never thought it was like a real, real physical thing. And I always thought it was more like psychological in nature; and which is psychological in nature but I always felt like, you know, it would be like sheer willpower for somebody to just come over it themselves. But hearing from you, it seems like, you know, there's a huge population that needs help and what you're providing, I think it's amazing because once when you're stuck in that rat hole, that's the world you're living in, and it's really, really hard to even identify with you in that hole before somebody, you know, can, you can actually reach out for help. So love what you're doing. How would somebody reach you at, do you have a link?

Eric Recker:
Yeah, absolutely. So home base for me is just my website EricRecker.com and there are links to the hiring me as a coach or to in really the thing I like to make it a really easy onboarding process. First, we do a no-obligation call. We just talk. I hear about your story a little bit, see if what I do might be a good fit for you. And we have a conversation about that. And then I will send you some options for packages and we can talk through that. So I really like it to be a very low-pressure thing. If we're not a good fit, then I'm happy to help you find somebody that is a good fit for you. But I always want to be part of the good part of someone's story. I'm super passionate about that. That's what I want to do. And so if we can work together to help you get to a point where you I mean, we're not always going to look forward to going to work every single day. Some people say that they do that. It's rare. But I want to get to people who are dreading going to work every day and help them discover hope and belief that good days are ahead because they can be if we work on it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I really love the fact that you said, like, the first time you meet somebody, you ask them that what is it that they want? Because so much times we are like always, always get caught in the daily trivia of life that we really forget our goals, our passion, and we really kind of get sidetracked. And I think, you know, that is one of those things, I think, you're the expert. Once you get that online, I think everything starts falling into places. It's just the noise in this social media world of ours that we live in now.

Eric Recker:
Yeah. You know, as dentists, we're high achievers, right? A lot of times own our own businesses. We manage teams, we do all these kind of things. So when it comes to goal setting, we do that in the high achiever way too. We set 50 goals and there's no way we can pay enough attention to all of those goals. So a big part of what I do is helping people, walking alongside people and helping them get clear on what they really want, because when they get clear on what they really want, it all starts to make a whole lot more sense.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it, love it. Last question for you, doc. What does success mean to you?

Eric Recker:
Oh, man. Success means to me. So when I talk about success, I talk about my why or my purpose. So my why is to make a difference in this world that's utterly disproportionate to who I am. And for me, that is walking alongside individuals and helping them find a life that they love because we're meant to enjoy the lives that we have here. We're meant to find happiness. We're meant to have hope. Sometimes we just need some help along the journey. And that's what I want to do.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Great, I love it. Well, Dr. Eric Recker, thank you so much for coming along. I mean, this was a huge, huge help to many listeners who are actually burnt out. So if you are one of them that's burnt out, definitely, look this man up. EricRecker.com. I mean you cannot go wrong. Like he said, just a simple phone call to see if you're a good fit. And I think that will definitely pay off for itself. So with that being said, any last-minute comments, Dr. Recker?

Eric Recker:
Yeah. You know, burnout is a, it's a tough word and a lot of people don't want to raise their hand because burnout is like, Oh, there's no way I could have let myself get burned out. You don't even have to use that term. If your life just feels a little gray, if you're not excited about life, if there aren't things in your life that, if you're just feeling like it's become dull, that's similar to burnout. It's a stage on the journey. So I don't only work with people who say they are full-on burned out. So if you just aren't living the life that you want to live, if you feel stuck, if you just need some hope, let's have a conversation. Because that's what I love to help people do. It is my goal after I work with someone that they will leave with faith, hope, and belief that good days are ahead and we all need some of that, right?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Every single day. Hey, Dr. Recker was such an honor to have you with such good information. Thank you so much once again for coming on board and sharing your wisdom. So with that being said, we are going to land the plane and make sure you guys like and subscribe. Definitely look him up. EricRecker.com. EricRecker.com. And if there's any questions, DM me. In the meanwhile, look out for our next episode. Be great and God bless!

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Dr. Eric Recker:

Eric Recker is dedicated to helping others learn how to #WINtheNOW. Eric has taken on many roles throughout his life, including husband, father, dentist, elite success coach, pilot, speaker, author, mountain climber, and former triathlete. He has pushed himself to the edge, only to realize that what he truly sought wasn’t at the summit. Today, while managing a thriving dental practice he loves, Eric focuses on helping others learn to #WINtheNOW and uncover the life they are meant to live through his coaching and speaking engagements, through his coaching business. As a speaker and consultant, Eric shares stories and strategies that inspire audiences to live with hope, create a plan, and believe that brighter days are on the horizon. Eric and his wife, the amazing Amy, are now empty nesters. They, along with their two grown children, are proud residents of a small town in Iowa.

Things You’ll Learn:

  • Burnout can manifest as both physical symptoms and emotional exhaustion, making it crucial to recognize and address it early on. Ignoring the signs can lead to more severe consequences, including the urge to abandon one’s career.
  • Perfectionism often drives professionals to push themselves to the brink, but this mindset can be damaging in the long run. Shifting focus from perfection to progress can help prevent burnout.
  • Small, intentional changes in daily routines can have a significant impact on reducing stress and improving overall well-being. These changes can include adjusting work hours, delegating tasks, and prioritizing self-care.
  • The first step in overcoming burnout is recognizing the warning signs, such as a lack of joy in daily activities or feeling trapped by routines. Self-awareness is key to identifying when it’s time to make a change.
  • Seeking help from a coach or mentor can provide the guidance and support needed to navigate through burnout. Having someone to offer perspective can be a crucial factor in making lasting changes.

Resources:

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Categories
Podcast

From Paper Forms to Digital Success

Secure Dental Podcast with Guest Samad Syed titled From Paper Forms to Digital Success.

Summary:

Consistent, personalized communication is crucial for maintaining patient connections and reinforcing the importance of regular dental visits and pending treatments.
In this episode, Samad Syed, the CEO and Founder of SRS Web Solutions, brings a wealth of knowledge to optimizing dental practice efficiencies through his innovative platform, mConsent. He explores how mConsent transforms patient intake, enhances communication, and propels practice growth using deep integrations and targeted engagement strategies. From his engineering background and corporate expertise in productivity, Samad shares practical tips on reactivating patient databases and maximizing your practice’s potential.

Stay tuned for a fascinating conversation that could revolutionize how you manage your practice.

Secure Dental_Samad Syed: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental_Samad Syed: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
All right. Welcome to another episode of our Secure Dental podcast, where we bring in many different leaders from our industry, both inside and outside. And today, we have a very special guest, Mr. Samad Syed. And this guy is really great at what he does with his M consent. So we're going to dive a little bit more into it. But before we get started, this pod is sponsored by DentVia Dental Administration Virtual Company that actually takes care of all the back-end tasks for your front desk as well as your manager. So, definitely look them up. They do anything from call verification, lead generation calls, and all that good stuff, which our front desk hates to do. It's www.DentVia.com. Again, it's. w w w .d e n t v i a .com. Now, without further ado, I'm going to get started with Mr. Samad Syed, he is the actual CEO and founder of SRS Web Solutions. Mr. Syed, welcome to the show and let's pass the mic off to you.

Samad Syed:
Thank you, Doctor Liu. And interestingly, I just found out you're in Illinois, so I have some good memories of living in Chicago - the cold weather and all that stuff. Since I moved to Dallas, I missed the summers of Illinois. It's pretty nice to be around the lakes and the greenery, and it's beautiful out there.

Dr. Noel Liu:
It's all relative, right? Because it gets so cold and everybody enjoys the summer.

Samad Syed:
And you get away to that.

Dr. Noel Liu:
What better way to enjoy the city than in the summertime?

Samad Syed:
Absolutely, absolutely. So, a little bit about myself. I have a background in engineering. I did my MBA from Indiana University and got into dental well a few years ago, about eight years ago, when one of my friends, interestingly, in the Chicago area, invited me to his practice. My background in the corporate world has been in productivity and efficiency - Six Sigma master black belt. I care about where the money is wasted. So I looked at I used to look at different processes and I say that how can we improve this so we can improve the bottom line of our practices of, of our businesses. And he knew what I used to do. And he called me to his practice, and he said, tomorrow, I want you to come in and see what's happening here and see how can you help me. Long story short, I went into his office, and he took. He showed me a wall. And the wall has all the forms, about 30, 35 forms, where he said that I can't get the patient in without having them sign these forms. And it's a lot. Can you do something about this? This was back in those days where iPad was new and the technology was booming, said that why can't did you try this? And he said I'm giving this as a challenge if you can help me out.

Samad Syed:
And that is one. And I'm proud to say that it took us about a year and a half, and then we were able to transform his office, where we were able to completely change the experience of how patient intake works. We designed an iPad app where basically helps him to collect all his consent forms, medical histories, and all that are digitally and also designed an online intake form where the patients, before they come into the practice, is able to fill out the forms. So that's how it started, and it's all history. Today, we have about 2500 practices where we transform their patient, not only just patient intake. Now, we help them with three different areas in their practice. The number one is the patient intake part, which I just talked about. Number two is the patient communication part where, you know, the practices can text the patients, ask for the images, ask for the forms, ask for reviews, whatever. You have two-way text messaging with the patients' HIPAA-compliant text messaging. Also, we have a partnership with the phone company. Then, the number three is the practice growth. I was looking at a survey that they did last year.

Samad Syed:
And they said that only 77% of practices are able to fully utilize their capacity. Actually, the practices are only able to utilize up to 77% of their capacity in general. So, if you can see 100 patients, the practices are not able to see more than 77 on across across the board. Okay. So that's where we don't help with the digital marketing and all that. But what we help with is that we look at unscheduled treatment plans and say that how can we bring back patients into the practice who have not completed, who have treatment plans that are due? We also help with collecting payments, whether it's sending an online invoice, collecting text to pay, or we help with payment terminals in the office. On-site payment terminals and also the number one thing that we help them with patient reactivation. There are so many patients sitting in the database and people are and the practices ignored, this number one asset that they have, which is their patient database and people are not able to practice is not able to fully utilize what they have that close to them and bring back patients into their practice. I haven't showed up for a long time.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So tell me a little bit.

Samad Syed:
So this is the short of how we help.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, you started off with your buddy's practice. This was when again? 2004?

Samad Syed:
2014 or 2015.

Dr. Noel Liu:
14 and 15. Sorry. So 14 and 15. And now you've grown it to like a 2500 doctor base, right? Practices?

Samad Syed:
Practices. Yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's awesome. So, how do you guys differ from some of the practice management software out there? It's like most of them are doing that, right?

Samad Syed:
Yeah, of course, of course. One thing that we take very seriously is our customer support. That's what we take seriously. The onboarding experience, the customer support part. But what we look at is that nitty gritty of things where, for example, if you get if you go into forums, everybody says that, oh, we just digitize forms. But there are so many levels of the digitization of forms. It's not just collecting on-of-the-line forms, but making sure that the medical history integration is there. So, we have deep integrations. We have a partnership with Henry Schein. We are connected partners with Henry Schein. We are a technology partner with Patterson Eaglesoft. We integrate to a point where I see a lot of lacking in other systems where our integrations go deep and we also help with open dental. So our integrations are deep and we help practices at a higher level when it comes to patient intake forms, but also on insurance verifications. We help with the collecting. We have a tool that helps them verify insurance verification When the form comes in, we verify the insurance verification with the form because we all have all the information already. And we show them whether this person is active and active and then give them all the information that they need.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, for some of the listeners out there, right? They are looking at their software like us, we use Dentrix ascend. So we have a cloud-based. How difficult is it for you guys to tap into their API, or is it something which you've already worked it out?

Samad Syed:
We have a partnership with Dentrix and On Demand. We can build the integration with the APIs whatever Henry Schein can support us with. So there's there are limitations to what they allow you to integrate. And whatever they allow, you'll be able to integrate with.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Okay, okay. And as far as practice management software. So this is not practice management software.

Samad Syed:
It's a no we call it a patient engagement system. That's what it is.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Okay okay. Got it. So what about what is this M consent? Is that the consent forms, too?

Samad Syed:
Yes. So, it does have online forms. M consent is a total patient engagement platform okay? And it has patient intake forms. It has online scheduling. It has an appointment reminder system, a text messaging system, insurance verification, treatment plan reminders, and a complete suite of what the practice might need when it comes to intake, communication, or practice growth.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So let me take my example. I'm gonna ask you a tough question. My example is with Dentrix Ascend. These guys have decks built in. They have patient communications built in. They have all these reminders, all this stuff built in. Dentrix Ascend, some of them are like ala carte, and some of them are extra services. So for someone to say, okay, I want to get onboarded with you, what would be some of the benefits to skip those guys and then jump over with you?

Samad Syed:
So the number one thing I see is our interface with the patients is super easy. The patients love to work with something super easy. We have forms that are easily built for the patients to fill out, sign, and send it over to you. So that's the number one thing. Our Appointment Reminders system is customizable where you can have messages in Spanish. You can have messages built out. We have worked on a plan of appointment reminders, looking at different surveys on how many times the patient should be reminded for them to make sure that they don't forget coming to your practice. So there's a little more data and analysis that goes back into our system when it comes to how different we are with some practice management systems like Dentrix Ascend, which have all the built-in vessels into it. But know that we have spent a lot of time into developing these features. Compared to this, we don't focus on building practice management. We focus on building patient engagement. So that's how it can be different.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And for some other concerned listeners out there, I'm assuming that it's completely HIPAA compliant. Oh.

Samad Syed:
You can't be in the industry.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I just had to like throw it out because some are going to be people that are not HIPAA.

Samad Syed:
100%, 100%. One thing that I did a survey, not I did, but our company did a survey with 250 offices, and we asked them two questions. The number one question that we asked is what are the top three challenges that are faced by your practice? The number one challenge that we saw was that the practices said the amount of administrative time that we spent; the dentist basically said that we want to spend less time on administration time and more time on the chair, helping the patients, taking care of the patients, and about 25 to 30% of the time still the dentist spend on administrative time. And the number two answer was the practice growth. As I said, they all want to fill out fill their chairs, and they're still not able to book the appointments at a level that they want to. So they feel like the practice growth is important. We want to grow our practice. There are some offices that said that we want to grow from one location to a second location and a third location, and then the last one, they said that the third choice was financial management, meaning that financial management is where you have the practices, who are struggling with the insurance reimbursements and are not the way it used to be.

Samad Syed:
So, the cost of running the practices keeps going up, and the insurance reimbursements keep going down. Of course, the gap that's creating, that's where the struggle is that we're seeing. So these are the top three challenges that we see. And based on that, we ask questions like how can we help practices with their administrative time. And that's where M consent comes in. And for the practice growth, one thing that I have been telling practices is that the number one asset that you have in your practice is not your location, it's not your equipment. It's nothing else but your patient database because your patient database is the number one asset. So take care of the patient database. And how do you take care of the patient database? Let me give you an example. Crescent Family Dental in Illinois. We're not very far from you. And they were struggling to the doctor calls me and he asked me, hey, Samantha, I need your help. Give me some advice on how to fill my chairs. I need to fill my chairs. How do I do that? And he was asking like, should I spend $5,000? What's the marketing budget that I should consider? And what I ask him is that how many patients you have in your database and how many patients that you have in your database that hasn't come back for past 18 months.

Samad Syed:
We pulled in the database and we saw there were 2500 patients. That hasn't been back to his practice. We worked with them. I helped him out as a friend. We designed a strategy for email, text messaging, and social media. Everything included direct mailing. And we ran this campaign for six months and the results were amazing. He started to see 40 to 60 patients coming in every month back into his practice just by reactivating his database. And the messages were simple as, hey, Doctor Hahn, want to see you in your practice. I haven't seen you for a long time. Would you like to schedule a cleanup? There you go. You have people responding. Hey, the doctor is asking about me. Okay? Yeah, I've been missing this for a long time, so let me see when can we schedule? So it's a super important thing that if through this podcast, if I can let your listeners know one thing, which is to don't ignore your patient database. And I wrote a book on this, and I'm going to shamelessly advertise this. This book is called The Art of Patient Re-engagement. And the book has strategies on how you can build this patient re-engagement within your practice.

Dr. Noel Liu:
It's called The Art of Patient Re-engagement.

Samad Syed:
The Art of Patient Re-engagement. So now there'll be people who tell you that I already do recalls, though. What does that now? How is that different? So, the recalls, let me tell you that the recalls are the email open rates have gone down, and it keeps continuing to go down. So just the recalls are not enough anymore. What you have to look at is that you have to have a strategy in place because there's a cost of patient acquisition, people have to spend 200 to $600 to bring in patients into your practice. Now that patient is sitting in your practice, and you're not doing anything with that, that's a sin. You have to communicate with them. You have to have a strategy of continuously having a communication in whatever most natural possible way. For example, I tell people, what you need to do is have your patients join your social media, and when you have a baby shower in your practice, or you have a birthday in your practice, or the doctor is celebrating something, put that on social media so they can see the human part of your dentist. They don't have to see the coupons all the time. Just something very simple as this is what's happening in the practice.

Samad Syed:
We are giving away Colgate toothpaste and stop by to pick it up if you're available.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's a great idea.

Samad Syed:
Building that natural connection is the thing that you have to start looking into. How can I? The patients that I've engaged with and the patients who know me are the ones I need to keep working with. To make sure. Then the cost of your patient acquisition is lower year over year because people look to spend five, ten, 15, $20,000 always looking for new patients. Of course, you got to look for new patients, but know that what you have already in your database is a treasure, and you can't afford to just ignore that treasure. And that's what I would say. And then also one more thing. This is a technical thing, but for your front office, you have to make sure that they're properly collecting the email addresses and phone numbers. If you're not doing that digitally yet, you're probably collecting that and keeping your database intact, making sure that whenever you want to use it and whenever you want to start those campaigns, you have the right data in place.

Dr. Noel Liu:
100%. You just nailed something right there in the head. A lot of times when we are actually just searching for the new patients there. We are just going outside of what we don't have. We're always focusing on what we don't have. And you should be focusing on what you do have. And that is exactly what you just said. That's great. That's great.

Samad Syed:
And one more thing I would say is that I want you to think about this. There are probably like, every practice, have six, or seven competitors around them, and they are willing to put 4 to 400, 300, $400 per patient that is sitting in your database to bring in their database.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Good way to look at it.

Samad Syed:
But don't ignore that. You have to have a strategy in place. Whatever you do, email, you do phone you make phone calls. You send text messaging, you have direct mail. You're trying to spend a lot of money on the patients that you don't have in your database, but you're not doing anything with the patients you already have in the database. So that is something that's needed. And we do help practices if somebody says that, hey, I need help with that. And they raised their hand and we said that, okay, we'll help you with we have an account manager who can help you build the strategy and put things in place for you. So people usually get confused with like, oh, well, how do I put these Excel sheets together? How do I send emails? And we got people in place who can help.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Sure, sure. So how does it work with you? So let's say is it like an ala carte service that you provide like different services? Okay.

Samad Syed:
Yeah, yeah. So if you come to our practice and come to M consent and say, hey, I'm using your forms and I want to see if I can, you know, reactivate my database. Sure. What does it take? Our account manager will sit down with you and help you put a strategy in place. And because every practice is different. Some people have 1500 patients that haven't come back in the past 12 or 18 months. Some people have like 5000 patients. I have a practice that has 10,000 patients who are working right now to reactivate their practice. He didn't realize that. When I asked him, hey, doctor Q, I asked him, how many patients do you have in your database, like, what do you mean by that? Okay, let's go look at your open dental, pull that up, and see how many actual patients that you have seen in the past few years. And his practice has been in a long time. So he had about 10,000 plus patients that, on command he can bring back into his practice. And he doesn't have to look for any new patients. If you have 10,000, if you can get like 5% back, that's 500 patients in a month if you have the capacity to take care of them.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Absolutely. No, I love it briefly. This one thing is how do you guys onboard? What is the onboarding process look like?

Samad Syed:
Oh, for the patient reactivation?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Correct reactivation, or if there's any other services that you provide?

Samad Syed:
So the onboarding process is pretty simple. Our sales team will walk you through whatever service you are looking for. And then we have an account manager that we assign to everyone who wants to be part of the M consent. That account manager is responsible for making sure that we're taking care of your practice. Whether you need forms, whether you need appointment reminders. It's a la carte service, basically. And we do have a great savings plan, or we are very cost-competitive. We don't charge, like $2,000 and we don't charge $1,500 just to get the practice onboard. So usually our onboarding cost is very low to nothing.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Okay. Do you guys like do the reactivation for general population across the board on the database, or is it like specific target patients that we can also like play with?

Samad Syed:
Yeah. We actually look at your database. Whoever you have in your database, we reactivate those patients so that they come back to your practice.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So I'll give you a good example for myself, like me and a bunch of my other associate doctors, we do a lot of implant surgery, right? And we have many consoles that come through the door on a daily basis. And some of these guys, it's been over six months, over 12 months, 18 months, or two years, you name it. Do you guys have something service like that where you can just say, hey, I just want to target Invisalign or maybe just implants?

Samad Syed:
Yeah. Absolutely. So we have something called an unscheduled treatment plan. So what we do is that we educate them or we don't go and tell them, hey, come back for our coupon. We tell them, listen, you are looking to make your smile better. What's a better way than getting it done? During the summertime, we actually have a program for people who get a treatment plan for cavities. They don't come back. We basically educate them. Telling them about procrastinating a cavity doesn't help. It doesn't cure itself. You need to make sure that it doesn't go to a root canal so that now you have bad teeth and you have to remove your teeth itself or get a new implant, which may cost you 15 to $20,000. Procrastination is expensive, so get it done early. So this kind of education messages that we automatically send out. So what we do is that we connect with your system and we read the codes that your procedure asks you. Yeah, yeah. And based on those procedure codes we designed messages that go out to the patients based on those codes.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Got it. Got it okay. No, that's great. That's great. Yeah. Anything else you want to add to how people reach you?

Samad Syed:
Yeah. So the best way for people to reach us as a M content is www.mconsent.net. And if the people who want to reach me for questions. I'm very good at responding on LinkedIn usually. I'll send you my LinkedIn if you want to add.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Yes, we'll have the LinkedIn profile.

Samad Syed:
The profile video submitted is my LinkedIn profile. So people who want to get in touch with me. Yeah. I'm so glad that we connected with Doctor Liu. And it was wonderful talking to you. Thoroughly enjoyed the discussion.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, great. Great. It was such an awesome experience to learn about what you do. And there is another niche that fulfills this market, so I'm very glad that we connected as well. Awesome. Thank you very much for joining us. And ladies and gentlemen, make sure to like and subscribe. And this is going to be the end of our show today. Definitely go out there, crush it all my dark colleagues, and be great and have a great day.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLuidds.com. That's n o e l l i u d d s.com.

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About Samad Syed:

Samad Syed is the CEO and Founder of SRS Web Solutions, a Minneapolis, MN-based company that developed the leading dental patient engagement software platform, mConsent. mConsent is All-in-One Digital Transformation Solution for Dental Offices which helps the front office go paperless thereby improving Dental office productivity and improving Patient experience. Over 10 million patients across the USA have utilized mConsent software to go paperless, leading to improved patient experience and increased office productivity. 

In addition to his work in the dental industry, Samad is also a Visionary when it comes to healthcare technology, he has used his 6 Sigma Master Black Belt skills and has trained over 400 business leaders on bringing productivity and profitability to their businesses. Samad completed his Master’s in Engineering from Wayne State University in Michigan and holds an MBA from Indiana University. 

Samad lives in Dallas, TX with his wife and son. His educational background and extensive experience in the dental industry have made him a respected and sought-after expert in the field. Samad’s passion for improving patient experience and helping dental practices grow has led him to write “The Art of Patient Re-engagement: How to Win Back Your Inactive Patients”. His hope is that the book will help dental practices achieve higher patient retention rates, increase revenue, and provide better patient care.

Things You’ll Learn:

  • Your existing patient database is the number one asset for your practice. 
  • Avoid focusing solely on acquiring new patients; reengage your current patients to maximize growth and retention.
  • From digital patient intake forms to HIPAA-compliant text messaging systems and patient reactivation campaigns, leveraging a comprehensive patient engagement platform like mConsent can streamline administrative tasks and improve patient satisfaction.
  • Consistent, personalized communication is crucial. Email, social media, direct mail, and text messages should be strategically used to maintain a connection with your patient base and remind them of their pending treatments and the value of regular dental visits.
  • Effective reactivation tactics can bring back former patients, filling your chairs without the high cost of acquiring new patients.

Resources:

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Podcast

Optimizing Cash Flow and Revenue Cycles in Dentistry

Summary:

Centralizing and scaling operations is crucial for the success of multi-practice dental groups.

In this episode, Adin Bradley, an Executive Consultant and Fractional COO at Polaris Healthcare Partners, discusses challenges and solutions for doctor-owned, debt-funded dental practices. Adin shares insights on reducing turnover and optimizing revenue cycles and highlights the importance of aligning owners’ goals, investing in management and team members. He addresses the significance of establishing stringent processes for cash flow. Adin also discusses the associate equity model, emphasizing its benefits for doctors with high student debt and the need for a fixed cost structure and good marketing plan for practice growth. Adin further explores the concept of duct tape integration for larger group practices, the significance of cloud-based systems, and the importance of vertical growth and team commitment. He stresses the need for a clear vision, strategic planning, and continuous assessment of team growth. Finally, Adin provides practical tips for practice owners to ensure alignment with goals and overall success.

Tune in and learn how to navigate the complexities of dental practice management and growth!

Secure Dental_Adin Bradley.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental_Adin Bradley.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental Podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hello and welcome to another episode of our Secure Dental podcast, where we bring in many different talents from and outside our dental industry. Today we have a very special guest, Adin Bradley from Polaris. But before we dive in, just want to give a shoutout to my sponsor, which I'm also a co-founder of, which is DentVia. It's a virtual dental administration company that helps with back-office tasks and also helps supercharge your managers as well as the front desk. They do a call confirmation, lead generation calls, and all the insurance eligibilities, plus any other back-end tasks that you have. So definitely visit them at www.DentVia.com. Again, it's www.DentVia.com. Now to the main show. Adin. So Adin is a consultant with Polaris. Polaris does group practices. We've been a client with them for a year and a half and he's been amazing. So I want to pass the mic off to you, Adin, and I want you to introduce and tell us exactly what your role is and what Polaris does.

Adin Bradley:
Yeah. Great intro, Noel, and as always, great to see you and hear about your success over at Secure Dental and the team. As you mentioned, I work with Polaris Healthcare Partners. We are a niche consulting group that works solely in the doctor-owned, debt-funded dental space. I work specifically, I work as a strategic consultant and also a fractional chief operating officer. And just to draw a line between the two of them, consulting is more of advisory to the ownership group and their vision, and fractional COO is a little more in-depth work where doctor's still in the chair, still producing, doesn't really have the time to commit. They're generally larger practices that need a lot more hands-on. I work with them and their team to lead operations. And some of the other main areas that we work with, which are really popular programs, are associate equity programs that we'll talk about in a little bit. We have two new verticals that one of our co-founders, Perrin DesPortes runs, called the Catalyst Project and Ascendant Executive. These are more geared for those looking to determine if they want to grow a group practice or build one. It's an interactive Zoom group that Perrin runs with specific subject matter each week with one-on-ones, and that sort of gives them a consulting light type of engagement. And then finally, we do growth capital solutions, which is a nice word for we help recap debt. We do a lot of sell-side advisory and M&A. So we run a full gamut of whatever services are needed in that group dental space.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's awesome. That's a lot of stuff to absorb there Adin. That's great. What do you guys do? A whole bunch of services. So tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you get started?

Adin Bradley:
Coincidentally, I have an undergrad in HR, but I didn't care as much for the day-to-day minutia as I did the analytical part; staffing, retention, the cost of labor. And later got into labor negotiations. So that morphed into operations. I was a regional president for a national EMS Corp and a senior VP for a national urgent care group, and then was with American Dental Partners for a while, oversaw 30 clinics there. I stayed in dentistry, I loved it. I loved the fixed costs, provider-driven model. Very exciting to work with. About three years ago when Polaris was born, if you will, with Perrin and Diwakar, I joined them and just celebrated my three years and I got to tell you, it's gone by super, super quick and I enjoy working with groups like yourself and Dr. Jafri helping group practice owners realize their vision. So that's, I've come out of operations into more of an advisory role now.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So you have like extensive experience in group practices, right? And what is some of the trends that you've been seeing before and where is, where are the group practices are, where they're going now?

Adin Bradley:
It's a great question. While there are so many different group practices that have issues, there's a lot of common themes. Generally, they've been unable to centralize and scale operations while they own multiple practices. They really are siloed. A lot of times, the management team has grown with the group practice since they were incepted. Getting the right people into the right seats and assessing talent is very important. Not having a clear strategy, a vision. What do I want to do when I grow up? We just come to work every day and plug away and hope things get better. So we try to align what the owners really want to do. Do you want to build the scale? Do you want to build the exit? Do you just want to build a grow and see where that goes? And then from there, we start looking at every single department along the way and what can be optimized. So that's where we find a lot of leakage. I would say turnover and revenue cycle are the two biggest issues that, once corrected, have a considerable impact.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Got it, got it. So revenue cycle: how does that impact any organization? As we all cash is king.

Adin Bradley:
Cash is king. So we normally find the same types of issues where there's not a really stringent process from both at inception, from having all the right information, documentation, submitting claims, focusing on your days of sales outstanding, which is the time of service to the time the money hits the bank. And then how do we deal with insurance companies that say we didn't have enough information or denials in ensuring that all patient payments are paid up front? We look at the AR buckets quite a bit in the aging. What I have begun to see is that when you have a dedicated revenue cycle department with subject matter experts doing centralized services, that process runs much more smoothly. We found that collections of percentages have increased dramatically.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So if I were to ask you, like from team inception to revenue to patients to doctors, to everybody, right, the whole thing, what's the top of your list? Is it the management team or is it the doctors, or is it the actual, the front desk and the DA staff? Like who controls and where do you see group practices to become profitable? Would you say, let's invest in the management or the team members?

Adin Bradley:
I'm smiling because no one's ever asked me that question before. And it is an awesome question, Noel. And I will tell you that the answer is all of the above. And the reason is, if one single part of the groups that you mentioned, whether it be the front desk, the admin side, or clinical side, if anyone misses their cue, the whole process falls apart. So just real quick; if front desk does not get the appropriate information, the wrong insurance, the wrong treatment plan entered the codes, the bill, the submission can have a problem. If the Doc or the DA or whoever enters treatment knows does not have a robust summation, and have all the scans and everything that's required, that can cause a hiccup. And then finally, the claim submission part in the posting part; if someone forgets to submit a claim or a denial comes back for more information, how are we jumping on that? And sadly, we see a lot of groups that will have buckets and buckets of AR, and we find that a lot of the claims have either not been submitted or worse, they were submitted, denied, and just nobody captured them. They just, it's plug and play, right? I sent it out into the ethos. It never came back. It's not my problem anymore. Meanwhile, the owners like, why are we collecting 88, 89, 90%? And those dollars fall directly to the bottom line because as an owner, you've already paid all the expenses on it. That's really the difference, the key to groups like yourself that become profitable from both a cash and margin standpoint and those that are just barely treading water.

Dr. Noel Liu:
We've been there, and we know exactly what it feels like. There's no question there. Let's move on to Polaris's role. Like when you guys take on a client, what are some of those challenges that you guys see in terms from a strategic point as well as like an overall operation point?

Adin Bradley:
Again, while each one is a little bit different, there's a lot of core similarities. First, is the owner really committed to the process? It is the process can be arduous because it can get in the way of your clinical work. It can get in the way of your CE work. But normally what we do is we set the table for how the process is going to run, and we sit with the owners or owner and ask what their, how they define success, both personally and professionally, because they do intermingle. And from there we set forth to put what their vision is in about 3 to 5-year window and simultaneously are building out a financial model to see where they sit today. And then we'll meet for an initial strategic planning session put forth in the first quarter, about four initiatives that we think can gain immediate impact and results. We look at outcomes best and worst, what could happen, who's going to be responsible for them, and track them along the way. And then after the second quarterly meeting, we'll redo a financial model to see if we've moved the needle both in increasing revenue or decrease in expenses. We also look at other areas of care utilization. We look at your debt. Do you have the ability to fund growth if that's what your plan is? We look at turnover. So our model shows a lot of different areas within the business: doctor productivity, your payer mix. So once we get a good look at the baseline financial information in the health of the practice, it makes it much easier to devise a specific tailor-made strategy for your practice.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So it's not like one-size-fits-all, pretty much. The challenge is you guys, it's all over the place, right? Based on, and you just tailor it according to that practice or organization.

Adin Bradley:
Yeah, exactly. Like a three-group practice with a goal to just run a legacy business is much different than, say, Secure Dental, which is going on nearly a dozen, you continue to grow, and centralize. You're working with you, which was amazing, is that, and I continued to say this to other clients is I rarely see a team of two owners, especially two physicians that are married, you and Dr. Jafri that know their lane and have put together a really good team that has been deputized to manage the process. And you both know the numbers inside and out, what moves the needle. But most importantly, you've invested in your people and doctor education, clinical excellence. I think, like you said, we've all been there. When I look when we first met, where you were to now, it's been an incredible journey for you both. And it's not gone without a lot of hard work, but it just shows you when you stick to the plan, good things will happen.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And it's not been that long ago. It was just like what?

Adin Bradley:
I was going to say two and a half, three years.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Yeah, exactly. Adin, man, let's talk about some systems here. Some key takeaways, right? What are some of the metrics that you really would like to hone on for someone who wants to grow from, let's say, two locations to, they're like, Hey, I want to grow two, three, or 4, or 5. What would be some of the key metrics that you were really hone on to and they need to watch like a hawk?

Adin Bradley:
I'm going to throw a few out, but these are not in any order of importance because they're all equally important. First and foremost is profitability and cash flow. The only way to grow and scale is to be able to have enough capacity, leverage, if you will, to borrow money for growth. In order to do that operationally, we need to be producing more. And how we produce more is how much revenue, how much collections can we generate from every hour that we're opening the chair? One of the things that you've done, which I profess to a lot of partners of ours, is more expansive dentistry, especially in the GP world. We talk about doing more endo, full-arch cases, molar extractions, things that GP and the GP world, I don't know, maybe a dozen years ago would have ought have been, automatically been a referral out. So to generate that much more revenue helps in a fixed cost structure. Recruitment and retention of top talent is also very important; it creates stickiness with your, with the patients, which are number one referral source. A good marketing plan to continue to cycle through new patients. And then the rest is really locking up your associates under possibly either earned equity plan or some bonus-driven plan that makes them want to stay. One of the challenges, one of the biggest challenges that we see that probably has the most impact financially is if an associate leaves and there's not one there to replace kind of dead time, right? And as an owner, you don't want, you or Dr. Jafri does not want to have to keep jumping back into the chair. So an owner does not want to have to keep being relied upon once they've stepped out of the chair. So all equally important, but definitely to grow, is the ability to borrow dollars for future investment and then keeping the process going. Now within that, I would also say you would have had to scale and centralize services too to make sure that you are running truly as a group practice and not as individual sites, just doing their own thing with common ownership.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And that's really important because we see that all the time. And that's what they call the duct tape. That's how I think the term came about when a group of friends, they just collaborate and just go, Hey, we're all going to partner up together. Let's talk a little bit about PMS, right, practice management systems. When you see these practices and you're trying to scale these guys, and I know a lot of them, they do acquisitions and they all have different systems, what are your thoughts on different systems or running like a something centralized which has everything enclosed or would you like just prefer one system for every location?

Adin Bradley:
Man, I got to tell you, you know, you got some great questions this early in the morning. It's a little bit of art and a little bit of science. I think the larger the group practice and I would say getting above 10 to 12 practices within the group. I would highly recommend being on the same platform. If you are doing acquisitions and someone is on one practice management system and you're buying one on another, set aside with your implementation team enough time to both integrate the culture, the standards, the benefits, the pay scales, and then move to get all of their data extracted onto your platform that's cloud-based. It makes for extracting patient data much easier. Everybody's doing the same thing, your reports are pulling. So if you're using Jarvis or a practice-by-numbers dental Intel care stack, the dashboards will collate from being on one system. It may not be possible right away because there's a lot of work, a lot of things to be done. But I would say any practice over 10 to 12 within six months of an acquisition merge joint venture should all be on the same web, certainly, cloud-based system.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And I think that also drives up the valuation of the organization. They're all on one.

Adin Bradley:
Absolutely. And what is even better is that if the group that's looking to partner with you as a strategic partner is on the same platform, that makes it even easier, not only from a technical part, but also from an expertise part, and then integrating the data into that system. A lot of times when I see these one-off custom-built systems, I always think down the road you're going to end up, you're going to end up proverbially paying for that. I don't want to give plugs to certain ones, but most of our listeners know what the 3 or 4 main practice management systems that are cloud-based out there, and I would play in that sandbox.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's an excellent advice, by the way, because that's one of those things which we see all the time. And a lot of people have questions like if we run different systems. So that answers that. So now let's dive into your field. We were talking a little bit about associate equity model. And we were talking a little bit about how expansive or how small do you want to keep that role within the organization, or you want to put it at a practice level? Let's dive a little bit into that. Let's talk about it.

Adin Bradley:
Yeah. So this has been one of our more popular services that we offer. And you and I were were talking just before the call. The FTC came out a couple of months ago with the ruling that Non-competes might be not recognized under certain situations. Obviously, we got a flood of calls like, how does this impact us? I wouldn't let the FTC ruling really be the driver of that. I would let the strategy and the value, the intrinsic value of the product really sell it. So with associate equity, what that allows you to do is a couple of things. One is to grow and scale where you can't be the primary associate. So you can continue to build, whether through acquisition or de novo practices, that you have associates that you place in there that you build the practice around, and they earn a portion of the value of that particular office or of the group above your capital interest. So without digging too deep into the weeds, ownership never loses their capital investment in an associate equity. We always think, I'm going to dilute. I'm going to dilute. They only earn equity on productivity and EBITDA or profitability above a certain threshold that we set, and they have to keep growing year over year. What this does is it keeps it an associate engaged, they become a true owner. And more importantly, when you mentioned earlier about selling, we have found that groups that have associates locked up under associate equity plans with real vested ownership becomes more highly predictable to a buyer so there can be a premium on the price because the fear of losing an associate is gone. So for those docs that want to buy, but they're coming out of school with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, the cost of capital, as we all know right now, we feel it at the kitchen table every day is very high. This gives them an opportunity to have real ownership in a big group at really no risk or cost to themselves. They just have to perform. And for you, entrepreneurial docs that continue to grow, that system just continues to work as you build more practices outwardly and just say, I'm going, I've got a great recruitment stream through a school that I've got a great relationship with, I meet with their associates in one of the things that I sell them on, not only is our culture, our clinical direction, our doctor development, but hey, you're going to run an office on your own and you're going to earn equity in that. How does that sound? That sounds like a pretty good competitive advantage to me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's so true because nowadays a lot of these students coming out, their biggest thing is student debt, because as time is going by with inflation, everything is going up pretty significantly. So they don't want to practice; too much headache. They don't want to take the risk; there's way too much involved. What is the best route? And I think what you just laid out, that's like a win. 100%.

Adin Bradley:
Yeah. And it gives the owner some time too, because when they, when you enter, if I can back up for a second, once you have the actual associate equity program developed, it doesn't mean that every associate gets it. You should have a criteria about who you want to be a partner. And it's not just about production, it's about culture. It's about ethics. It's about their vision. Does it align with yours? And then once they enter into the program, there is still some time for you to assess their fit within the organization. Are they everything as described? And they generally, we have what we call an effective year; one year when they're in the program. And then it's at the end of the second year with their first allocations of shares would be given to them. So it's a five-year vesting schedule and it is based really like the market share. There's a total number of shares generally into what your market cap is. I'm using that in air quotes and each share has a dollar value, and they're allocated a fifth of the total amount over a five-year period that vest. And there's operating agreements. You're going to have clauses on clawbacks, buyouts. You're going to protect yourself 100% in the operating agreements with them. So they'll have to continue to perform. And you can also have accelerated vesting if you were to decide to sell. And they need to be part of that exit where they might vest a little sooner if they have not hit their five-year mark. So the worst that really can happen with them is that if they don't produce, they just don't earn a lot of equity. So the analogy I read one time, and I can't even give credit to you because I don't know who it was is, for those that are fearful of giving away a little bit of the company that they built, I always say, Do you want to own 100% of a grape or 10% of an apple? And it just allows you to continue to scale and grow. And while the percentage might go down a little bit of ownership, the actual value is going up exponentially.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Exactly. That's such a great nugget that you just dropped, because that is something where a lot of people, they are like, so caught up in their own little world that they want to own and control 100%. And what you just said, that makes perfect sense.

Adin Bradley:
So we've had some clients like that, unfortunately, and they are just very steadfast in their core beliefs, and there's not a lot of wiggle room to look at other solutions. And to me, no matter what industry it is, this expands way beyond dentistry, that is a recipe for failure. The inability to pivot. I think, I don't think, I watched it in real time with Secure the ability to pivot, make changes, implement new processes, invest in technology, invest in people, invest in your docs has shown marked improvement over the years on the success of the practice, the profitability of the practice, and now your new growth plan. And I can't wait to see, I have no doubt that in another couple of years, I'm going to see what you're doing and how it's worked, because you have perfected the model on how to scale and integrate every single practice into the secure model.

Dr. Noel Liu:
One thing we've done is now as we are growing, we have changed that instead of just opening up locations like crazy, like how we were before, it's more about how do you grow vertically and how do you invest in your people. And this is one of those things. So this, tomorrow we are going heading down to Brazil. And one of the reasons we're heading down there is so I'm taking a group, my doctor, and it's been part of the whole strongman group learning nothing but full arches. So when they come back, they are all prepared and they're ready to rock and roll and we practice the same system. So we are, so I'm heavily involved and integrated with my team, and I think that really helps and change what you just said: If you're not investing in your people, you're not investing in the company, and it's the people that makes the company, not the other way around. So I feel like any future expansion has to be dictated by two factors: by patients and by our team. Not, hey, you know what? I found this location, I love it. I want to open up another Secure. No, I think it's got to be dictated by where the demand goes. And I think that's how a lot of the big successful corporations have done it. So I'm just following that path, studying those guys and just doing it one at a time.

Adin Bradley:
Yeah. They say imitation is the greatest form of flattery. And when we do another one of these in chat, I'd love to to flip the script and interview you a little bit and talk about the pain points that you had along the way, because we see the successful part of it, how we centralized, how we've optimized, how we're building. But I'm sure you could spend a lot of time on the first number of years that you and Dr. Jafri had, where things were not so rosy, and whether being the chair all the time and doctor development came second. And staff, you might have not have had everybody that you wanted on the team just plugging holes here or there. And then when do you hit that precipice where you say, Okay, hold on, I'm going to stop and pump the brakes here. I'm going to start doing, every decision is going to be the right one. You mentioned just, I love this location; let me buy it. Do you have a real target acquisition profile? Demographics, geography. There's a cannibalize a current office. Is it in your footprint? What's the competition look like? Does it have the residential base, the density to support all the things that you talked about? And I think it's great going down to Brazil because you being knee to knee with your associates is no greater testament to the commitment to what you're doing than the owners there with you and highly skilled at doing it. If that doesn't jazz them up, I don't know what does.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And I think that's one of the reasons why we're so attractive, because I really like to be in the trenches with them. And one thing, Adιn, we grew this way before horizontal, and that caused us to go far and thin and we were stretched out. Now we are planning to go vertical and just maximizing every single opportunity we have within our practices rather than going out. And we did a lot of stuff that you told us, hey, how about addition with subtraction? But it never crossed my mind before. And when we started doing that, all of a sudden, the bottom line, the EBITDA just went up.

Adin Bradley:
Yeah, sometimes out-of-the-box thinking works. And for me, I'm humbled by the trust that you put in us to help along the way and in a myriad of issues, not just in running the business, but in the people part and certain day-to-day employee relations issues and marketing and growth. And it's amazing to see how in just a couple of years from when you came to visit us in that masterclass in Charlotte, to us engaging and all that you guys are doing right now. I think it's proof that if you have a vision, you are committed to it and you have the right people, it is achievable. But you have to do all those things every day. Φor the listeners out there that anyone who doesn't know Dr. Noel here, this is a man who's up at 3:00 every day taking an ice cold bath, working out, very disciplined. And you just do the same things every single day, not looking for a magic bullet.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Well, thank you very much.

Adin Bradley:
Hell, you've even inspired me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
It's been inspirational, because this is what exactly the grind that we go through every single day. And then you don't get scared to tackle problems. Now, let's pivot a little bit here. Now, for the people who does not want to grow, they are like 1 or 2 practice and they're like, how do I optimize and become really profitable? And I just want to stay in those 1 or 2 locations. How is that different from somebody who wants to grow?

Adin Bradley:
It's tough because I, it would depend on if they're doing it because they generally like their work-life balance. Right? There are some groups out there, they've got young families or hobbies that they like to do. In the business side of things, detracts from that. So the business is really just a driver of cash flow to fund their activities. And I'm making an assumption in an example of only one core group. The other one could be really just a fear of the unknown, so it's just easier to stay in your safe place. So for those one and two off practices or I'm sorry, one or 1 or 2 office practices owned by a single doc is ensure you've got a really good leadership team, particularly if you are still the driver of the practice, it's highly dependent on you to be in the chair. The problem with that is that when you do want to take a vacation or you get sick, not only are you out, but when you talked about growing vertically, the practice takes a significant hit financially because you have to pay the staff to be there and the biggest economic driver of cash is gone. My biggest recommendation would be is if you do really want to say stay smaller because it fits your lifestyle, at a minimum, I would try to work yourself out of the chair a couple, 2 to 3 days a week, not only to work on the admin side, but to make the business less dependent on you so when you want to engage in those activities outside of the office, that you've got a team in place that can continue to keep the trains running on time. The team around you has to be really good at what they do, because differences and inefficiencies don't show as much in one and two practices. In 12 practices, 10 practices, being 10% off in collections is much, much bigger than 1 or 2 practices. But I would still say to keep a heavy eye on the key metrics, which obviously is collections, your collections percentage. I would be looking at all of your expenses to make sure that as a percentage of revenue, they're within those guardrails. And what I mean by that is, outside of your fixed costs, labor and supplies should be moving with the amount of production that you're doing. If production tends to come down and your expenses continue to go up, someone's not managing the store. If you're collecting 85 or 90% of your adjusted production, we've got a hole in the bucket there. I mentioned earlier all the expenses have been paid. This is where the technical expertise makes the difference between being almost profitable, or just making it to having a little bit of buffer there. And when you do that, you might think, Oh my gosh, this is doable. I can scale this. Maybe I want to be three practices, maybe I want to be four. But it will open a doctor up to at least the opportunities to pivot if they want. Just running two offices, letting associates do what they want, not investing in that staff turnover all the time. Collections not being done is a recipe for a doc that's going to end up working merely for free, because you can't afford to pay himself salaries, going to pay for overhead and bills.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You know what I think, Adin, is? It's about efficiency and knowing the how and the what and the why. Once they understand that aspect, they can become better leaders. And once when they figure out how to run that 1 or 2 practice successfully, I think they usually start wanting to venture out a little bit. It's just because they are having to put out fires every single day in their own 1 or 2 locations, which is why they are like, you know what? I'm not even going to bother with anymore. I think that's probably the main driving factor that a lot of people, they don't want to expand. So what you just said, I think that hits it right nail right in the head. Because once you understand the process, you understand leadership, you understand the whole gamut of taking care of your people, I think that will really open up their opportunity door. So that's what's ...

Adin Bradley:
Listen, we're Gen Xers and Boomers, some of us. But for those Gen Y and Gen Z's out there that have not seen The Karate Kid, I highly recommend watching it because if you remember wax on, wax off. If we just learned those core movements and repeat them every single day, what you just said will ultimately happen. I call it being successful in spite of ourselves. Just do the right thing every day. But if you are managing chaos, who would want to grow? All you're going to do is extrapolate the chaos. I wouldn't want to grow. So yeah, great advice. And you've been there. So again, you can share nuggets of being one, two, three practices. And I can clearly state that your operation now in the double-digit practices runs way more smoothly than it did with 1 or 2 practices.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm less on a journey also, and more on the business and in the business. Right? That makes a whole of a world of a difference. And here's another thing too I would like to share. A lot of people think, oh yeah, you're off the chair. You're not working. No, it's actually the other way around. When you're not on the chair, you're actually working harder because now when you're working on the business, you're actually creating opportunities for the team and the members, because if we are in the business constantly, what's happening is we are not able to grow ourselves and then we're not able to let anybody else grow underneath us. So I think that's a huge nugget that I would like to share as well, because once you ..., you can see so much better from like 30-40,000ft² up in the air than if you are ...

Adin Bradley:
I was just thinking the same. No, I was going to say the only way you can really have a high level look at the entire landscape is to get yourself out of the rabbit hole. Once you're entrenched in that chair, you're not seeing what's blazing around you. So that gives you a bird's eye view of getting in there and identifying an issue and correcting it immediately. And it may not even be an issue. It just may be an opportunity to enhance an associate's skill set that they want to do. You might see a lot of promise in someone they may not see in themselves. So you become a coach and a cheerleader, working with the team to have them understand why the numbers work they are. We hear this, They're just worried about money. And I'm like, Well, this is the driver of how we get paid and turn the lights on and growth. But it also gives people opportunities to go into different positions as you grow. If you're training and mentoring your folks properly and leading them, as you open up new practices and they know your processes and your culture and they share your vision, it's plug and play from there.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Plug and play. And that's what I always say. Like, you got to do what ticks for your team so that the team can do what ticks for you and the organization and everything works and in alignment. Not growing is really an injustice to your team. That's what I always say. Yeah. So Adin, before the end, man, I would like you to share two tips that anybody can take away and start using right away. What are some of the, it doesn't have to be two. It can be like any number.

Adin Bradley:
I would first look at the team that I have around me and ask myself, How long have they been here, and can they take me to the next level? That would be number one. And I think how you assess that is: Have you grown? And if you have not grown, ask yourself why. The second tip I think for any group-practice owner or single-practice owner or two-practice owner, really define what your real vision is. And what I call it is utopia. I don't want to grow because I'm scared is not a reason to grow. If you weren't scared and you were profitable, would you grow? So having a real clear vision of what 3 to 5 years looks like. What are you building for? What's that hit-by-the-bus solution that you have? What if something happened to the main driver of the organization? So is there a plan to grow and scale, a plan to optimize? If not, I would say get one in place right away. Last I checked, Father Time is undefeated and for any callers out there that would, their listeners out there that would even like just a cursory chat with us, Adin@PolarisHealthcarePartners.com. We are PolarisHealthcarePartners.com online. We have a whole list of services and we often set up Zooms for young emerging groups that just want to chat and say, I don't even know where to begin. So I would say one of the nuggets is to give one of us an email or a call. And you've always been excellent at talking to other groups too, and sharing your vision, your strategy, your pain points. And I hear it all the time, and I love connecting folks with clients that we've worked with, that have seen the struggle that can give you all of the good, bad, and the ugly that's not coming really from an advisory person, but someone who owns practices and has been there, done that. So the two things. Look at your team and ask yourself, can they bring me to the next level and have a clear vision for at least the next 3 to 5 years? And every decision that you make is got to be congruent with that vision.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And with that being said, I'm going to add one more thing to it. You got to have a growth mindset. You got to have a learning mindset. One of those challenges that I always felt initially when I was starting off was, I know it all, and that is like the worst position to be in, because even at this point, we are always learning, always networking, always collaborating and always knowing what I don't know. So it's like pretty much you don't know what you don't know. And I always feel like I always have opportunities to learn more and do more. Always keep learning, always keep pushing because there's never an end to it. So Adin my friend, thank you so much, man. Thanks for being here. It was a great pleasure. You dropped so much good information.

Adin Bradley:
Yeah. Thanks, Noel. It's always great to connect with you and hear how things are going. Give my best to the team and Dr. Jafri as well. And enjoy your time in Brazil. I'm sure the associates are going to have a great time and I can't wait to hear when you get back of putting their new skills to work.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hey, thank you very much.

Adin Bradley:
Will talk to you soon.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man. We're going to land the plane now. Thanks, everyone for listening and tuning in. Make sure to like and subscribe. We will definitely see you on our next episode.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Adin Bradley:

Adin Bradley serves as an Executive Consultant and Fractional COO at Polaris Healthcare Partners, guiding clients through the development and implementation of comprehensive, multi-year strategic plans. He assists clients with associate equity, healthcare marketing advice, buy and sell side advisory, clinician development, growth strategies, business and legal structure development, including location growth and vertical expansion. Adin finds fulfillment in his clients’ success and the development of his Polaris colleagues. His extensive operational background includes roles at Fastmed Urgent Care, American Dental Partners, and Rural/Metro Corporation. He holds a bachelor’s degree from Niagara College in Ontario and an MBA from the State University of New York at Buffalo. Adin is an avid Bills fan, sports enthusiast, and golfer, who enjoys quality time with his wife, two teenagers, and hosting family and friends.

Things You’ll Learn:

  • Centralizing and scaling operations is crucial for the success of multi-practice dental groups.
  • Aligning owners’ goals with every department’s optimization can help address common management issues.
  • Stringent processes for cash flow, from inception to money hitting the bank, are essential for practice growth.
  • Investing in management and team members ensures smooth patient payment processes and profitability.
  • The associate equity model allows doctors to build practices and earn equity without financial risk.

Resources:

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Podcast Uncategorized

Finding Purpose and Fulfillment in Your Dental Career

Summary:

Networking and building relationships are essential for success in the dental field.

 

In this episode, Dr. Glenn Vo, founder and CEO of Nifty Thrifty Dentists, discusses his journey in dentistry, the importance of honesty and helping others, and the value of work-life balance. Dr. Vo shares his transition from psychology to dentistry, influenced by his sister and his own realization of his potential. He highlights the significance of laying a strong career foundation, fostering a supportive environment, and not comparing oneself to others. Glenn stresses the challenges and sacrifices of starting a dental practice, underscoring hard work, determination, and the need for networking. He also touches on being resourceful, finding purpose, and the importance of giving back to one’s community. Finally, Dr. Vo emphasizes collaboration over competition and the need to adapt to different life seasons for work-life balance, and explains his unique definition of success every listener can benefit from. 

 

Tune in and learn from Dr. Vo’s remarkable journey about achieving success, building strong relationships, and finding purpose in your career and life!

Secure Dental_Dr Glenn Vo.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental_Dr Glenn Vo.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental Podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hey. Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of our Live here. So this is Dr. Glenn Vo. So we are doing another episode of our Secure Dental podcast. This guy is such a treat. So before we get started, I just want to give a shout out to my sponsor: DentVia. DentVia is a virtual dental administration company, basically assisting our front desk in our dental offices to do all the back-end office tasks such as calls, eligibility, all the back, like lead generation calls and follow up. So definitely check them out. www.DentVia.com. That's DentVia.com. Now, without further ado, this gentleman needs no introduction. Glenn Vo, it's such an honor to have you here, man. He runs Nifty Thrifty. If most of you guys are not aware of Nifty Thrifty, I don't know where you've been living, but let's get down to it. I'll let you do the intro and let's dive right in.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
First of all, thank you so much. I've been a big fan of this podcast, a big fan of you. You're just not only just an amazing entrepreneur, but also what separates entrepreneurs is their generosity. And of course, I don't have to talk about what you've done recently in the dental community. Just so generous, willing to give back, but also not only give back from a monetary standpoint, but giving back with your knowledge and also uplifting other people and being an inspiration. So again, just want to let you know, especially as an Asian, just I always follow other Asian entrepreneurs and I'm like so amazing of what you've done. So thank you so much for having me on here. And I just want to let everyone know that essentially what I do is I'm just a connector of people, as at an early age, I've always been just like a resource, whether it's my friends, growing up, they're asking me like, Hey, what's a good place to buy these school supplies or something like that? And even in dental school, people ask me like, Hey, do you have a, hey, do you have some notes? Or you have some old test or something like that? I've always just been a resource. And literally that's just what I've done in Nifty Thrifty and speaking in podcasts. I just try to help others. I try to get as much knowledge as I can, make as many connections as I can, so I can be a resource to others. Now, how does that translate to the business world, right? If you are a dependable person, you are someone with integrity, and if you are someone who genuinely wants to help others, then people will come to you. I wish I could just share like some kind of, people always think, Do you have this secret like way to talk to people? Is there a negotiation, way to negotiate things? And I tell I don't. I truly I've read all those books. I followed the Grant Cardone's of the world, the Gary Vee's. Look, I've learned from all those guys. And all I can tell you is there's some good stuff there. But if you simply just are a good person, you're honest, and you genuinely want to help people, I promise you the opportunities will come. I wish I could give you something more complicated than that, but if you just do those three things, opportunities will come.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You said such a good point because that is exactly all these big boys have in common, right? You said Gary Vee's, the Grand Cardone's of the world. If you look at all the personal development space, there are all these guys, they all have one thing in common is to genuinely help somebody. The minute you do that, success follows, money follows, fame follows, everything follows. And you're like a proven legend right here, my man. You've taken your Nifty Thrifty such a long way. Let's get started from dental school. What, how did you get into dentistry, man? I would like to hear about that.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
So I want to share something that I think you will appreciate. There's something about growing up in an Asian household. When it comes to your siblings and sometimes your parents, they are very blunt and straight to the point and sometimes like it hurts your feelings. And I remember when I was in college, I just went through the whole college experience. My older sister was just like, she was a child prodigy. She got into dental school when she was like 20 years old. She became a dentist at 24. She didn't have any debt because she had the foresight to have the military pay for it. And so she was like the prodigy. I'm like the middle child. And they just say, just do it. Just try not to bring shame to the family. That's pretty much like my parents there. Yeah. Just don't bring shame to the family. Right? So what happened was, is that I was doing a master's program in health administration. I thought, Hey, that sounds like a good degree. Just slide by and whatnot. And I remember my sister reaching out to me. She said, Hey, come down and why don't you, my assistant is out sick. Can you come and just work for a week? I'll pay you really good. Can you assist me for a week? Little did I know that my parents and her, they had an ulterior motive. Wow. Because they were like, This guy has more potential. He's a smart guy. So I was there, and I remember assisting my sister. This was like near the end of the week. And she stopped.

Dr. Noel Liu:
How old were you?

Dr. Glenn Vo:
This was, I was, I want to say I was like early 20s. I already graduated with undergrad. I had a degree in psychology. I didn't even know what I wanted to do.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Kind of lost at that time.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Yeah, it was a little lost. And I was doing this master's program because I thought you could probably make six figure income. That's all I cared about. So I was assisting my sister and I remember this like yesterday. I was suctioning. She was doing like, some composites. And she stopped what she was doing. And she looked at me. And she says, Glenn, do you want to be a loser the rest of your life? I was like, What? I was like offended. But only a sister can say that to her younger brother. She said that, she was like, Do you want to be a loser for the rest of your life? What's funny is that the patient that I was working on, she actually looked at me too. They all looked at me. The patient looked at me. My sister looked at me. And I was like shocked. And I said, No, I don't want to be a loser. On the spot. Even the patient looked at me because she wanted to know, do I still want to be a loser for the rest of my life? She looked at me too. And so my sister's, The reason why I brought you down here is because I wanted to see if this is something that you could do, because I feel like you have more potential than just getting some master's degree. And no offense to people who have a master's in health administration. No offense to them. But my sister saw that I had a little bit more in me, maybe the ability to be a doctor. And after that I was like, You know what? No, I don't want to be a loser. And so I actually went back to school, did a post-bacc program at UT, and started going to dental school. Now most people that get into dentistry because maybe they like to eat, maybe they like the science aspect. I actually joined and the reason why my sister brought me there is I watched her how she, I liked the business aspect and the relationship aspect. I liked the fact that as a dentist, you are a mentor not only to your team, but to your patients. You're educating them. And for me, I always had that in my heart. And so that's the reason why I wanted to become a dentist, because I wanted to be a professional that people went to for advice to learn from. And I liked the fact that you can mentor and you can uplift the team. So that's actually how I got into dentistry. Is my sister literally semi-insulting me and saying, You don't want to be a loser, but to this day I still tell her it wasn't for her, I wouldn't have been a Dentist. And honestly, that's what a good sibling is. They watch out for you. Especially the oldest sibling. You're, and I tell this to my daughter all the time. It's your job to lay the foundation, but you have the honor of being the oldest. God gifted you with that honor, so you have to live up to that honor. So that's how I got to industry.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I'm going to steal that from my daughter.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
I tell that all the time. Because like her younger brother, he's a true, my son's, I have a 14-year-old daughter, a 11-year-old son. And so my 14-year-old daughter, she's a competitive swimmer. Obviously, she's really into school as well. My son's a competitive wrestler. And so she, I tell her, You got to lay the foundation, like you going to practice two times a day. She had practice this morning. She had practice in the afternoon. Somewhere in between, she's doing some schoolwork too, and also relaxing because it is summer. And I told her I was like, You can't slack off because this guy is actually watching you. You have a. So anyways, you should put a little pressure on your daughter too.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So you play the psychological game. I love it.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
You got to ... And our parents did that too. Probably in a, maybe not in a, in their own way, but they played these things. But that's what good parents do.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Did your parents ever compare you to other people, like other, like your cousins or your? Man, I was sick and tired of that.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
To this day, I absolutely hate that. And actually, I refuse to do that with my own kids. But I have to say this though, and for those who are watching, who are dental professionals or health care professionals, I want you guys to think about this. And I got this from one of my mentors who I actually, I'm at this gym and these guys, these three, the three richest guys in the, in my community, they work out here. And I'm so lucky that they consider me as a friend. They always pass the advice. But what they always say is that what made you successful: don't rob your kids of that. And I say, What do you mean by that? Glenn, did you have all these things that you have right now growing up? I was like, No, I had to work two jobs. Like sometimes I remember, like, sometimes I had to walk home from school. Sometimes my parents can pick me up; all these things. And they're like, And was that a big reason for your success? I was like, Yeah, because I had to grind and stuff like that. They said, Don't rob your kids of that. I always remembered that and now it's up to us. I can't put my kids in my same situation. That might be like borderline child abuse. Like I can't put them in that same situation, but you can put them in situations that force them to dig down deep and work hard and grit. And so for me, that is putting them in athletics and putting them in like hard courses, because that's going to force them to look within themselves. And that's my way. So again, I know I've steered off a little bit, but I just feel like we.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, man, that's a great advice because we as dental professionals, if we had a hard life, we always want to give it back to the kids in such a way that, oh yeah, you know what? Just have it easy, because I had it hard. And you know what? You're going to get it easy. But no, you're going to, like you said, you are robbing them off. And the thing is, you are taking away the glory, the glory that you get once you make it; you're taking that away. And I completely 110%, my friend, I agree with you.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Yeah. And although there's a certain things that my parents did that, I'll be honest, to this day is still bothers me. You can't. And my sister told me this. She says, Can you complain about the results? I was like, Okay, I can't really complain about it. I don't like the means, but you can't complain about the results. And so what we've done, and I truly feel this as, and everyone who has kids can relate to this is our job is to be better versions of our parents, right? Like I want my kids to be a better version of me. And part of that is not just financial and not just scholastic and academic achievements. It's also helping them become a better person. So for me, it's I'm learning the lessons that my parents put to me. I'm just packaging it in a different way, so to speak.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it. So, Glenn, tell me this here. You graduated from dental school. What was the first thing you did? Did you, like, open up your own practice? Did you work? How was that journey like for you?

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Yeah. So what I did, and everyone's situation is different. For me, I wanted to help my family out as much as possible. My parents worked really hard and they never asked for anything. So this was not their idea of, Hey, come get out and so that we can retire. No. I wanted to help out. And so for me, like I was focused on, I need to get a job that can make as much money as possible. Yes, could I be an associate at a private practice and learn things and take it easy? Yes, but I need to make money right away. And so I went into corporate dentistry because I wanted that. Number one also to make as much money as possible to help out my family, but also I want to get exposed to as much dentistry as possible. So this group and the founder of this corporate group, I'm friends, he is my mentor to this day. He actually, just to let you guys know, a good way to recruit like-minded people is you share your story and if they resonate with your story, then you know you got that same guy. So he actually came from the same background. His parents owned a fast food place. He was going there after. He told me stories of actually doing his homework and going there and flipping burgers and helping his family, and he built this from the ground up. And so I resonated with that story. So I was like, I'm going to work for this guy. This guy has the same thing. And so I worked for a couple of years, and then my wife and I, we opened our practice. But something that I did, which a lot of times people, they think, Okay, they're going to quit their job and go to their office and start working. Look, guys, when you start your practice, you're not going to get your patient flow, cash flow right away.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Let's be real.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
You got to have your other job. That's what I did. And if my son was going to ask me how to do it, I would recommend this way for him. For some people might not work, but I literally was working six days a week, six days a week: three at my associate job, three at my practice. My wife, she worked a little bit more in the practice, but she was still working part time because we didn't want to take any money from the practice. We reinvested it into the practice, pay down the debt, expand, put money towards expansion. I didn't take any money while I had this other job. It wasn't until, it got to the point where he could support me, that's when I left. So that's what we did. It's I literally, when you talk about Nifty Thrifty is not a term I throw around. I lived it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Because you lived it.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
I lived it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Yeah. So when you were starting off, man. So I know what do you think about work? So for somebody starting off, you went through the grind. I went through the grind. Tell me, what does work life balance look like at that time?

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Yeah. So I'll tell you what, guys. I'm learning every day. And even back then I learned so much. But I truly feel that work-life balance is going to be different from everybody, again, for everybody. For me, I'm very involved with my kids. I'm very involved with my family at this season of my life. But I truly feel like work-life balance, you should look at it in the lens of seasons. Okay? Everyone has a different season in their life. In the beginning, if you don't have any kids and it's just you and your wife, or maybe you're not even married yet. You're in a certain season. If you're in a certain season where you don't have a lot of obligations to your family, then you shift your resources and your time maybe more to your business, right? If you're in a season where your kids are getting into the impressionable age, let's say their middle school, high school, you might want to shift things there because they really need you there. So when it comes to work-life balance, I tell people to look at the season you are in your life. So if you have the flexibility of you don't have kids yet and you have the ability to maybe be more, being able to plan it better, then maybe in a certain season you're like, Okay, hey, you tell your wife, Hey, you know what? Or tell your husband, Hey, let's just hold off on kids just for a little bit. Let's just get to this point and then let's get there. Now, of course, life happens. If you already have kids, then that's fine. Then you have to move things around. But work-life balance should be based on the seasons of your life. So look where you are, be, and if you're lucky enough, try to plan it so that when, because again, you can be a awesome father or mother if you're already past that grind of trying to build your practice. If your practice's a certain level, then you're going to be a better father. Now, can you juggle everything? Sure. Our parents did that, but I think we all can admit that you probably could have had your parents a little bit more in your life like they did. I know with my own family, as I've gotten older and I've become a father myself, like I'm a little bit more, have a little bit more empathy for my parents. I was like, Oh man, they did the best that they could. Maybe I complained. Can't pick me up? I gotta walk home? These guys are getting picked up or these parents are here. Maybe when I was younger I would complain. But as an adult now, I can see that. And so we understand. So just plan around the season. That's what I, that's my big advice for work-life balance.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Nice, nice, I completely agree. So when you got started, you opened up a practice. You got to settle. So how long did it take you? Because a lot of times people have this question that, Hey, if I open up my practice, what am I looking at? Two years, five years, one year? I know, again, everyone's different. But in your case, when you said to shift all the resources. And somebody goes, I opened up my practice, but I still want to play golf, I still want to enjoy life, and I'm single. And how long does it take to get that practice profitable.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Man, so that question, it's going to be different for everyone. But I'm going to tell everybody this is that people who are successful like yourself, like other, these other amazing doctors out there, it wasn't an overnight thing. There's a lot of sacrifice involved. And when I'm talking about sacrifice, I'm not even talking about sacrificing, not buying that Benz or not buying that million dollar house. There's real sacrifices when it comes to also relationships, too. And I'm not even talking about relationships with your spouse. I'm not even talking about relationship with your family. There's relationships with your friends, right? Like you're going to have to go away for a little bit. Or maybe you realize that you only have so much time, so now you prioritize your actual relationship with some friends and whatnot. So for me, I knew that I didn't. I wanted to get rid of my debt as quickly as possible. Obviously, as I've matured now in my financial intelligence and whatnot, that's not necessarily a bad thing. But it took me a while to get that. But I came from the old school where you didn't want to owe anything. So for me, my practice was actually profitable, probably within six months. And then from there shortly thereafter, I wouldn't make sure that my wife. So my wife's a dentist as well. We met in dental school. But I wanted to make sure that she got out of that grind of corporate dentistry and into our practice. So she got into our practice full-time within that six months, and slowly I came over. But again, being Nifty Thrifty, meaning, Hey, I mean.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I save every penny.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
I want to have that nice car. Once you're a doctor, you should have this nice car. And I still drove my like, Honda, and my wife still drove her Toyota. That was working really good. We did buy a house in a few years later, you know, but we try to resist that because we wanted to build that foundation. We wanted to get build up like that nest egg so just in case we have some slow months and whatnot. And that's how we did it. And when I say Nifty Thrifty, I'm talking about if I had to go there and had to change out the filters and do the stuff, I'd do it myself. If I had to go out there, people always talk about marketing. Okay, I want to, let me put all this money in marketing. You know what my marketing was in the beginning? I literally went to every business and met them and shook their hand and offered them like a amazing deal. Like, I'm free exam and cleaning for you? And I'll give you like the discount plan for free for your team. I asked them, I was like, Do you have health insurance, dental insurance for your team? And other small businesses, they have the same problems. No, we don't do that. I was like, How about I help you out? How about I give you this discount for you and your team to come to my practice? That's literally how I got my first patient. And to this day, this guy who owns, like, the most popular burger place in the town that my practice is in; he's still a patient today. And guess what he does? When people talk about this, Go to my dentist; he's the best. Right? And again, think about it. What better way to get patients when other businesses say, Hey, my dentist is Dr. Vo. He's the best. You got to see him. Now, of course, as I'm not in the practice as much, people only want to see me. So they're like, Dr. Vo is only here for a couple of days. You can see his associate. And so that kind of can get troublesome. But again, that's how I built my practice the old-fashioned way.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That is such a great tool. Because here's the thing, man. If we are starting off our practice, we are broke. We got all the student loans, we got all this expenses, payroll, you name it. Right? Why would somebody have this arrogance and this feeling about, No, I'm a doctor; i'm not going to do that? I don't understand that. And like you, I did the same thing. I got thrown out of the parking lots. I was putting those flyers in my, on those parking lot cars. I got thrown out, security came in. Hey, you cannot do that. You got to leave right away. So I feel like, hey, listen, man, if you have to clean up your own crap on the floor, you have to do all this stuff yourself, there's no shame in it when you're starting off. And I think as a learning lesson from you, what you just said, you shared, it really resonates with me because we have to put our ego aside at that time and just go for it.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Yeah. No, absolutely. Again, it's, I won't, I wouldn't change anything. Obviously, there's certain investments I wish I got in early, right? Like I'm sure all of us. But as far as.

Dr. Noel Liu:
It's never too late.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Yeah, it's never too late. But as far as just working really hard in the corporate side and doing all that, I wouldn't change anything. No, it's not for everybody. But I had to go through that because then it gave me the kind of like conditioning. Like I went through that, I worked my butt off. I can do the same thing for my office and work my butt off as well. And so again, it's just like doctors, everyone wants to look for a shortcut. And there are shortcuts. There are shortcuts, but there is no shortcut to hard work. The faster you get that through your head, and this is anybody, if you're an associate right now and you feel like there's more, something more for you, you want to open your practice, there is something more. But don't trick yourself into thinking that when you open a practice, you're doing less work. You think like the owner. We're sitting here twiddling our thumbs. We paid our dues. That's the thing. We paid our dues and we took the risks. So I'm telling all these young doctors and even like associates that moved on from my practice, I say, I wish you the best of luck and I want you to do well. I want you to actually use the things that you learned here, because then I did my job. But make no mistake, you're going to work your butt off, and you are going to wonder if you made the right decision, because we all did at one point in time when we opened our practice.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I don't know about you, but I had always had a mind where I was like, Hey, do I want to quit? Always passes your mind. So let's dive into Nifty Thrifty. When did you get this launched and how was it? Like, how long ago? What is it? What is the scenes? You know, the whole thing behind.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Yeah. Since 2017. And I'm going to share something that I know that you feel very passionate about. And that is: Sometimes you have to be in different rooms. You have to be around people who are doing more because they show you what's possible in your life. So sometimes you happen to be in that room. Sometimes you have to pay to be in that room. But again, like if you get in these different rooms, these mentors or these people around you, they will show you what is possible. And for me, I share a story of one of the coaches that I had. She was really instrumental in helping me change the culture of my practice, just teaching that part. Like I knew the dentistry, like I knew how to work hard. I wanted to learn more about the culture of practice so I can better motivate my team because everyone has a different, let's be honest, everyone has different motivations and different levels of ambition, and you have to be able to work with people who are at different levels, whether it's intelligence or motivation or work ethic. You have to work with all these different people. That's what make up your practice. And so she was a coach who helped me deal with that. And remember when we were done, she looked at me and she says, What's next? So what do you mean what's next? I'm going to grow my practice, get it to a certain level, and either sell it and retire and drink pina coladas on the beach. That was just like my goal, everyone's goal, right? Starting out. And she says, No, no, I see that you have more potential than just this. I feel like you have more potential to impact people beyond the four walls of your dental practice. And she planted the seed. And I started thinking. And I was like, maybe there is something to it. And from there, I've always been a person who was really resourceful. I had to be resourceful because that was my upbringing. When you don't have a lot, you have to figure out a way to get more, whether it's like working an extra job, maybe doing some side hustles, figuring out a way, I grew up with four other siblings, being able, getting some attention for your parents, try to. You have to be resourceful. So I've always been a resourceful person and that's how I grew my practice. Right? I've used dental equipment, bartering with other businesses to help me, bartering with the contractor so he can help build out some extra ops for me for dental work, bartering with the local Maelor place so that, doing dental work for her kids so I can get an ad in the local mailer. Like I was always very resourceful and so I was always giving advice to other dentists about sourcing different money and stuff. And so that's literally how Nifty Thrifty got started. People were asking me questions. They were asking me questions. Another Facebook group I had, which is called Dental Garage Sale, they were asking me questions about saving money, and I was like, Let me start this other group. And slowly what happening was vendors started coming to me. They're like, Hey, how do we get some exposure? I was like, maybe we can work out a deal where you win, I win, and the group wins. And literally, I was just doing something. People were like, they get blown away about what I did in the group. But I will tell you guys very simply. Everything that anyone does in business is pretty much a time-tested technique, right? Marketing in the Facebook group is the same if you were joining a Rotary Club and you were networking. It's basically networking. So what I want people to know is that the answers to growing your business has already been established. Someone who wrote a book, Think and Grow Rich, long time ago, okay, long time ago, it still applies. What you have to understand is that you just have to change the environment. The concepts are the same, the environments are different, right? The environments that you do, being just smart in real estate, you also can bring it into cryptocurrency, right? Like the concepts are still there. And if you break the rules, doc this, if you break the rules, that's what you get in trouble. You pay the price, okay? You pay the price for being arrogant, okay? You follow the rules of business, whatever it is, and you're okay. And so literally, that's how Nifty Thrifty. And so from there, I'm a big believer of not being complacent, doing deals and discounts. Okay. Then we move up to let's get some advice in there. Let's move on. I try to level up more. Okay, let me get the message outside of my group. Let's do podcasts. Right? Let's do events. Let's do speaking. And so that's how it happened. Again, like I, one of my books that I wrote, Industry Influencer, because so many people, they asked me like, how do you do what I do? I'm like, it all boils down to figuring out what your genius ability is. So a genius ability is basically a skill that you have that no one else has; other people might have it, but you're really good at; and you just got to figure out: Does your industry need it? Can you make, and you can make money off of it? And that's your genius.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And that's in your book, right?

Dr. Glenn Vo:
That's in my book. Yeah. So for me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
What's it called again?

Dr. Glenn Vo:
I don't have it right here. I actually have my other book, my Nifty Thrifty book right here. But again, like I tell people just I literally lay out the blueprint because everyone has like a special skill. Like, Doc, you have a special skill, you have this special skill, just knowing, just being really, you're very good at all the details and whatnot. You grew this group practice and you've done these investments because you can see that those things, you have this special ability. Everyone has a special. For me, it's being able to network. Right? That's my, I do that naturally. I don't even, and that's why if you figure out what your genius ability is and you figure out a way to build your business around it, you will never feel like you're working. Doc, I'll tell you right now, I probably work more now than I ever did chairside. But it doesn't feel like work to me. It's easy. Like I'll do this all day. I have to sometimes make sure I don't do this around my kids. Like, sometimes I'll get on a call and we'll work out some deal. And my kids are in the car and I'm like, Oh my gosh. And it's so funny because now my son, he now will say, Hey dad, dad was talking about just getting equity in something, like he's using those words because he hears me bring it up so much. I have to, I need to stop. I need to stop doing that. But if you figure out what your genius ability is, you will never feel like you're working. You will feel like you're just having fun. And I'm just blessed to be in that position.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, that's great man. I think on that note, I think that's a good thing. I personally feel it's a good thing for our kids because now they know what daddy is doing, and I think that's going to give them a really good head start on what they need to do. I feel that's a good thing.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I, my, it's funny as we go through different seasons of life and I don't want to share this with everyone because everyone's always looking for purpose. I think if you find purpose in your life, and not to go down a spiritual path or anything, I can relate this to anything, if you find purpose in your life, then you will always have somewhere to go. And I think like a lot of times when doctors, they get the practice, they're doing good and then they're like looking around, what else? Like, I can go vacation, I can retire, I could do that. But if you have purpose in your life, and for me, purpose has shifted from the what I want to who I want to serve, right? And at the most basic way of putting this. For me, it's I want to keep pushing because I see my kids are watching. And I want them, I want to show them what's possible because I feel like they can do so much more. And so a lot of times when people are searching for purpose, maybe you should shift it from the I want to attain this, I want to achieve this, to the who, which is maybe it's your, maybe it's your kids, maybe it's your wife, maybe it's your community. If you shift it to the who, how are you going to serve these other people, you're always going to have purpose. So anyways, that's something that I'm always.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's a great point to drive home, by the way. It's all about the why and the purpose. And here's my thing on the take on the same note. I always believe that no one is better than anyone, right? We all have different powers. We all have different skill set. And at the end of the day, man, all we got to understand is we are human social creatures. We need to collaborate. Once we collaborate with network, we can tap into the mastermind and create our own mastermind. And that's how I feel we should be going in dentistry rather than competing and beating each other up. You know how it is, right? But collaboration is the key. And that's the new net worth, in my opinion.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Yeah. No, I 100% agree there. I feel like if you have a scarcity mindset, you are missing out so much. You are missing out so much because there's going to be someone, even if they're in the same space, even if they have a practice in their same area. Right? Maybe they're doing the exact same thing. There is so much opportunity out there. There are so many people that need help. And if you just cut yourself off from that relationship, maybe that relationship, and I'll tell you, doc, a lot of times the things that I've gotten fortune that have been really successful for me is just because I just happen to be introduced to somebody. I just happened to meet someone. Someone met again, like a really big, I was a part owner in a dental lab that we just exited, and I happened to make that, I got that introduction through a friend who, he made the introduction and he couldn't do business with this person. But I got introduced to this person. And lo and behold, we got into this business venture. Right? So again, you never know who you're going to meet. You never know. The guy that's picking you up, the Uber guy could just mention something and give you an idea. Like everyone, and that's why I believe what you just said there that everyone has, if you go through life realizing that everyone has a purpose and a value, you're going to get so much opportunity. The second that you feel like, just like what you said earlier, the second you feel like you're better than people, that's where the opportunities dry up. That's where the learning stops. Anybody, any from the guy that is bringing you your food, the person who's checking out, everyone, you can learn something from everyone. I truly believe that. In fact, I learn all the time from people; listening to them, interacting with them. You have that mindset, you're going to get so much info.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And that's what it is, because you are so aware of the opportunities, because you're aware of it. A lot of people say you got to be at the right place at the right time, but I believe that you got to be at the right place at the right time and also be aware. Because if you're not aware, you could be at the right place at the right time all day long. But you're never going to take action.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Oh, yeah. No, I mean absolutely. Absolutely. Again like you can find lessons in everything. I'm a big sports person. So I always look at lessons when it comes to sports and how things happen. And again, yeah, being at the right place at the right time. But also sometimes you're not at the right place unless you're working hard.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Exactly.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
And sometimes people don't want to, I wouldn't say not talk to you because I think for the longest time I was I grew up with very little. So I always had a chip on my shoulder. I was like, I always had to prove things. But I think what I changed my mindset is, no, it's not because people don't see your worth, right? They just don't notice you yet. And it's up to you to try to get to another level for them to say, Oh my gosh. And so for me, for the longest time, Oh, this guy blew me off or whatever. And it's not that. They're so busy. They're so busy. There's so many things going their way. But if you're working really hard and you build something, then all of a sudden people will notice you, right? So it goes back to all those things come into play. But there's no shortcuts. Tom Brady just actually just had his retirement ceremony. And his, one thing that he kept on, that he got his jersey retired by the Patriots. And in his speech he says: No shortcuts. He kept on saying that: No shortcuts. And you got to put hard work in there. And yes, there is some shortcuts, but there's no shortcut to hard work, no matter what.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Don't you agree with all the sport greats and all like guys like Kobe, Jordan, Brady? Everybody has the same work ethic. You got to put in the reps, you got to put in the reps.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Again, those guys are like all-time greats and amazing people. And even when they say that, right, these guys are just God-gifted. They have everything. You probably thinking like, Oh, Brady's, he's a tall guy and he has a good arm and everything, but I like using him and Kobe. In fact, I actually have, they're like, in my office here, I actually have a painting, a picture of Kobe, of Brady, and Jordan up there as well with some sayings, because yes, they're amazing people, but they had to work so hard. If you guys, again, like I already mentioned, if you're like a good person, you have an abundance mindset, you're willing to help people, you're willing to work hard, you do those three things, you do those four things, success is going to come. You don't have to, of course, it's helpful if you get more knowledge, read more books, but if you just do that, success will come.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it. So what's next step for you?

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Next step is something exciting about is again, I'm trying to surround myself by people who, you know, such as yourself, such as Dr. Gianni Montanucci, all these different people who are just amazing investors, who are just, who surround themselves with a great network. So for me, honestly, what started, I'm actually co-hosting a conference that actually you're going to be at, that you're going to be at; that passive investing for dentist conference. And actually, what happened, i'll tell you the story behind that. The story behind that was I reached out to Dr. Gianni. I was like, Hey, I just, can you like give me some resources? I just want to learn more. I just want to learn more. I don't want to become like a real estate professional. Like I don't have time for it right now. I just want to learn more. Can you just connect me? And he mentioned you and a few other Facebook groups, and I was like, I just want to be around good people who are like, they just want to share and they want to share in like the deals that they're doing. Like, I'm not looking for someone who just wants to sign me up for their mastermind or whatnot. I want to see if they want to share that. So he was like, Let's do a meetup. Let's get like ten people. I'll bring some people in my network and you bring some dentists, and let's just have them meet up in Dallas. That's what it started off with. Then what happened was people are like, Can I come to this meetup? Can I come? And we're like, Okay, fine, we're gonna have to do like a little event. 50 people. So then more people start to get invited. And now he was, Gianni was like, Glenn, more people want to show up.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You guys are sold out.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Yeah, so we sold out. So then basically what we did was we, I had to scramble around, find another venue last minute.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No way. You guys are actually finding another venue, like a bigger size?

Dr. Glenn Vo:
And so now, so now we're going to do 100. And I told Gianni I was like, There's no way I'm going to get anything bigger than this. So right now we have 30 seats available and that's it. Like I can't do anything about it. But what started was we were just going to meet up and I just want to learn more. And now a bunch of people want to come together and learn more, and I'm excited. You're going to be there with a panel with a few other amazing.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I'm excited, I'm excited. When is this? August 16th, right?

Dr. Glenn Vo:
August 16th. It's in Dallas. It's in the town outside of Dallas called The Colony, which is an amazing area. And again, like we literally, we had to find another venue, we found it here, to get more people. But for me, it's all about just learning more and leveling up and just getting surrounded by other people like yourself who have an abundance mindset. Because I just want to get better. I just want to learn more. And what I'm hoping is.

Dr. Noel Liu:
There's very few of us out there. I'm not joking. You know how it is. When you look around. It's hard to find like-minded people.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
And that's the thing, and that's the thing. And we're so excited about this because I want to learn more when it comes to this. Because if you look at, I'll be honest with you guys, if you look at the amazing entrepreneurs out there, even some of the athletes I just brought up. Learning never stopped for them. They were good at making money in a certain way, but they wouldn't have learned other things. And that's really the, I'm not saying that I'm going to become a real estate professional, but I do want to know what's out there because I see all these other high-level people benefiting from these things. And again, you have to work with the people that have been there, like yourself and Dr. ... and all these other guys who are willing to share that knowledge. Because look, at the end of the day, you start as a dental professional too. You are giving back to your alma mater and helping all these people out. Again, guys, for me, I'm looking at you. And I'm like, I want to get, how did he do that? But at some point, you started where I was and that's what it's all about, right?

Dr. Noel Liu:
I learned this from Tony Robbins. The secret in living is giving. And that's one thing I've noticed. Like, ever since we pledged that amount and ever since we did a lot of the other stuff that we do on the side, the business automatically just gets better. It's crazy karma. Like people just say, Hey, how are you doing it? You don't have to do it. It's just, it just happens without getting too spiritual, right?

Dr. Glenn Vo:
No, I love it. It's just. And I will tell you, as someone who has saw what you did, it's inspiring to me. It's inspiring to me because it's when you give like that and when you're willing to help others, you don't know who it touches. And for me, I was like, Wow, that's amazing. Like I, and when you give like that, it ends up helping more people.

Dr. Noel Liu:
More impact, more people. And I wish everybody did at a grassroot level. And this way then, you know what the school doesn't need to borrow money from Delta Dental.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, exactly.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So yeah. Glenn, hey, it was amazing conversation. So two things here. I just want to ask you, what does success mean to you and how would you define family?

Dr. Glenn Vo:
What's funny is that defining success, I want to say, the majority of my adult life I've tried to search for that definition, right? And early in my career, I thought it was a dollar amount. I thought it was a maybe amount of material things. Maybe I thought it was also the ability to do stuff for other people in my family, what I could give them. But what I realized as I've gotten older and gotten mature and lived life a little bit more is success to me, is the ability to spend time with the people I love without restriction. And what I mean by that is that's my family, the people that I love working with, without restriction. And literally that goes to freedom. That goes to freedom. I think at the end of the day, when people are searching for the things that they think they want, like I want X amount in my bank account, I want this, I want that, what they're really asking for is the freedom of it. And so for me, it's the, but not just, freedom for me is the ability to spend time with the people I love. I've gotten there. I'm looking for deeper levels of that. I'm lucky enough to be able to pick up my kids every day from school, take them to their activities, have a schedule that's flexible enough for that, and also do good and fulfill myself as well. Spending time with the people I love without restriction. And there's different levels of that. I'm just trying to get to the deeper, that's like the Zen state to get to the deepest level of that. Again, people I love is is not just my family, but people that I like to work with, I like to mentor, that are like family to me. That's what success. And of course, family is something that's more, that's goes beyond just your blood family. I think we all can agree that sometimes our blood family probably doesn't treat us the best sometimes. So family for me is the people that touch you on a deeper emotional and spiritual level. I have people who are not my blood family, but I consider family members, mentors who I feel like consider they're my, big brothers, big sisters. And so that's what it is. So again, like family is not limited to just blood, but it is the people who affect you on a positive way, spiritually.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it. Great. All right, my man. I appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us here. It was great insight.

Dr. Glenn Vo:
Thank you so much for having me on. And for those who reach out to me anytime, I'm easy to find on social media, LinkedIn, Facebook's best way. Happy to talk to everyone. Again, that's how I run my business, run my life by connecting with more people. So if you have any questions or anything, let me be of service to you. Reach out to me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it. This is Dr. Glenn Vo. Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to land a plane. And if you guys have any questions, we're going to put a link below. He is not hard to find. He is everywhere and definitely Nifty Thrifty. If you guys have not heard of it, I don't know where you've been living, but definitely look it up and be a member. Join. He is a great resource. So with that being said, make sure to like and subscribe. We'll see you guys on the other episode, and for now, have a good one.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDs.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Dr. Glenn Vo:

Dr. Glenn Vo is a practicing dentist, best-selling author, dental entrepreneur, and karaoke enthusiast. He is the creator of Nifty Thrifty Dentists, a social media platform that reaches over 54k dental professionals on Facebook and 23k subscribers on YouTube. Additionally, he founded Dental Lifestyles Magazine, a quarterly publication for dental professionals across the US. Dr. Vo is a USA Today Best Selling Author with his debut novel “2612 Cherryhill Lane” and a Wall Street Journal Best Selling Author with his business book “Industry Influencer.”

Dr. Vo coaches professionals nationwide, helping them become thought leaders in their industry. He is also the owner of Denton Smiles Dentistry, a large group practice serving the Greater Denton Area since 2009. Through Nifty Thrifty Dentists and Dental Lifestyles Magazine, he supports dental professionals in advancing their careers and helps dental companies grow by increasing brand awareness within their networks.

Dr. Glenn Vo lectures across the country on dental overhead management and social media strategies for dental corporations. In his personal life, he continues to combat tooth decay and gingivitis in his practice while serving as an Uber driver for his kids and a trophy husband to his wife, Susan.

Things You’ll Learn:

  • Resourcefulness can help grow a successful practice and achieve financial freedom.
  • Finding purpose in life and career shifts focus from personal achievements to serving others.
  • Collaboration and an abundance mindset open up more opportunities than competition.
  • Challenging situations help develop skills and qualities necessary for professional success.
  • Giving back to one’s community and alma mater fosters personal growth and success.
  • Success goes beyond material possessions and includes spending time with loved ones and mentors.

Resources:

  • Connect with and follow Dr. Glenn on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook.
  • Learn more about Nifty Thrifty on LinkedIn and their website.
  • Discover more about Dr. Glenn Vo on his personal website.
  • Buy the Nifty Thrifty Dentists book by Dr. Glenn Vo here.
  • Get a copy of Industry Influencer by Dr. Glenn Vo here.
Categories
Podcast Uncategorized

Exploring Cutting-Edge Digital Techniques in Dentistry

XCell Dental Implants

Summary:

Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast!

This new show will bring you conversations with the brightest minds in the Dental and Business Communities. Hosted by Dr. Noel Liu, this show will dive deep into practical tips to grow your business. Many entrepreneurs wished they had a guidebook or someone to help them understand how to grow their businesses, Well you’re in luck because this show will be exactly that!

Tune in twice a month and unleash your full potential!

Secure Dental -Jonathan Abenaim: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental -Jonathan Abenaim: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hello, everyone! Welcome to another episode of our Secure Dental podcast, where we bring in many bright talents from our dental industry. Today, we have a very, very special treat. I got this gentleman here, this guy has been like my lifesaver in full-arch so, but before we get started, I would like to shout out to our sponsor. DentVia is a dental virtual administration company that helps our front desk staff supercharge them with back-end calls and back-end tasks, so definitely visit them at DentVia.com again. That's D E N T V I A .com. Now without further ado, I got Dr. Jonathan here. He's a world-renowned double-board certified implantologist and has revolutionized the dental implant experience with the XCell Implant Process. With over a decade of experience in full mouth rehab, Dr. Jonathan has harnessed the latest digital dental technology to offer faster, more predictable, and superior quality service. From his state-of-the-art office, Dr. Jonathan, the brains behind the XCell Implant Process. Welcome.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, doc, how did you get started with dentistry? Let's go back in dental school.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
So it's actually quite interesting. You know, a lot of people, they go into these fields because they have some sort of experience when they were young, you know, say, they say maybe you go to the army, you go to the police, you become a police officer, maybe because you were bullied or something. I would think maybe you become an MD because, you know, you had somebody in your family maybe was sick, or you had some experience at the doctor that decided that you wanted to do something about medicine. And if you were a dentist, maybe you got hit by a car, or you had some crazy dental experience that made you love it. But to be honest with you, I've never had a cavity in my life. I went to pediatric dentist my whole life and just had cleanings. Never really had the only. My biggest dental experience was at the oral surgeon to have my wisdom teeth taken out like every other 17 to 18-year-old kid. And I decided I'm going to go to do dentistry because I like people. But before dentistry, I thought I was going to be a computer science major. And then I realized, I really like people. I like technology, but I really like people also. And there was nothing in technology 20 years ago when I became a dentist. I mean, the biggest thing was a ... Dent, you know, like that was like, wow, that was huge. And maybe Dentrix had come out and we can actually not have to write our full charts, like you said, like hybrid charts, right? But I said, I'm going to be a pediatric dentist because that's what I know about dentistry and an externship of pediatric dentistry in dental school. And I swore to myself that I don't want to sing the wheels on the bus go round and round for the rest of my life every single day. So, I really looked into more things in dentistry, and I couldn't find anything that I loved more than the other because I just loved everything, and that led me to where I am. And people ask me, like, how did you do this? And I said, you know, I went back 20 years ago. We had this class in dental school that said to us, write down your mission statement. Write your mission statement about why you want to become a dentist and what is your business going to look like, and what's your practice going to look like. And I read it till today, I found it, and I read it till today, and the major topic was, or the major theme was change the brand of dentistry. Because I was so tired of hearing, no offense doc, we really don't like you. And that's like the most offensive thing because if you're a dentist, right? And you really care about your profession? You know how much we think about it, how much we dedicate our life to make the patient experience the best? I mean, listen, I'm not the one that makes the Septocaine taste really bad. I just buy it. I mean, I'm sorry, anesthesia tastes bad, and I wish somebody I'm not smart enough to make it taste good. So, like I really said, you know what? When I started doing full arches, I said, there is no way I'm going to be taking these Oprah tray impressions, cutting up these Invisalign trays, ordering a custom tray, hoping that I find those holes before the PVS or the Polyether sets, and do this again. And then when I take it out and send it to the lab, the lab either loses my impression or they mess up on the pour, and then I got to redo the whole thing again. And I was so tired of apologizing to my patients for things I didn't do, and that drove me nuts. On the other side, I felt kind of a hypocrite when I put in a beautiful restoration and I didn't make it. It was only my lab technician, and I'm like, yeah, I'm great, take a look. It's like when doctors show their case, and they show the before and the after. I'm like the before, your staff probably took the picture, and the after, your lab technician did. So what did you really do? You cut the tooth a bit. You took an impression. I mean, it's kind of hypocritical, and I was like, wow. And I don't have a problem with those before and afters, but like, if you didn't do it, tag your lab. The guy or the gal worked really, really hard, tag them. You know, give them the give them the credit. Don't take it off.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love the statement.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
It's like, it's crazy. So, as you guys know, like I'm the surgeon, I'm the restorative dentist, and I'm the lab technician. I'm the guy that runs the mill. I'm the guy that centers it. I'm the guy that does a lot of it, and if not all of it, and I don't know, I guess I sleep better at night.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, that's an excellent statement because, you know, a lot of these before and after, and I think you're the only person who called out that shot. So I love it, man, I love it. So after graduation, did you guys go right to, you know, your own practice? Did you work in an associate? What was the process like for you?

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
So, like I told you, I had nothing that I wanted to only do. So, my dream was always be to be a periodontist and a prosthodontist. And I applied to Perio Pros at Penn, where I went to undergrad, and they accepted two people, and I was one of them that they accepted. And they had changed the dean, and I was the year that all graduate funding was gone. So I went to Penn, I wouldn't have a scholarship, I paid for four years of dental school and Perio Pros is another four years. And I said to myself, oh my God, if I go for another four years of Perio Pros, even though I was recruited from the day that I started to do this, I said, My God, I'm going to finish with half-a-million dollars in debt then, which is almost a million today, probably.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Easy.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
And I said, I can't do that. I tried to speak to the dean. It was a new dean from Harvard. She said to me, oh, you want a scholarship? No problem. Just dedicate seven more years of your life after school here. I'm like four years of dental school, four years a Perio Pros, and seven years of academic teaching. I'm not going to do this. So I started looking for other programs, and Florida was the first and only Pros program in the country that allowed Prosthodontists to place implants. Now, they have to place implants, all pros residencies, to be able to graduate, but it was the first one, and they offered me a full scholarship. I got to school, and the implant director was fired. The director was fired, and my scholarship vanished. So I said, well, I'm not gonna leave Penn to come to this school. I'm going to say, what? Not even. And I stayed there for six months. I was married, I had a kid, and I said, I'm out of here. I went, and I did a part-time implant residency with Dr. Miller at the Atlantic Coast Dental Research Clinic. I did that for about a year, and that was really like it was so little. You know, people think they take maxi courses, and they're going to be implantologists. I mean, you got to practice. So, once I left there, I was working in Florida. I worked for 7 or 8, what you guys call DSOs today or DMOs. And I got fired seven times, and I got fired seven times because my dentistry was bad, was because I didn't want to do bad dentistry. And I'll never forget, on the last day of my job, the head of the DSO said to me, Jonathan, just shut the f up and do what I tell you to do. And I said to him, I'm really sorry, but I worked really hard for my license, and I'm not going to use some lab technician who does this in his garage, and I don't know what the hell they're doing or how they're coming. And it's, I'm not proud to put this in people's mouth. And a high-end lab for a DSO, then was Glidewell like, they're like, you cannot use Glidewell, it's too expensive. And that was $99 then. And I said, this is enough. And it was two years after dental school. I probably had like $30 to my name, maybe, plus my dental school debt and everything. And I was like, I told my wife, I said, I don't understand. I went to the best school in the world, I have nothing, I have all of this skill that I learned and I can't do it. And we decided to one day I decided to open The New York Times, which is that's how you found a job. And I found a practice in New York, New Jersey, actually, and I said, let's go. I bought it sight unseen. I lost 40% of the practice within the first three months.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Why was that?

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Nobody likes to do nice dentistry. They like when you buy a practice from a dentist who just patched everything or just watched everything, and then you come in and do digital X-rays, redo the office, redo everything, and start telling, diagnosing novice dentistry people that just want you to diagnose what their insurance covers, they don't like it. And when you don't have the communication skills, especially when you come out as a dentist, you think that you're talking to teeth. You need to talk to people.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Wow, that's huge, man. That's huge. This thing, what you just said, I think that's going to help so many people.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Yeah, like when you come out, you're trained by people that can't do most of the time most of the dental professors, unless they're passing through or doing this for fun because they're already been successful. Most of them are just there because they're stuck there, and they don't teach you how to talk to people, or you're just so busy in dental school, you don't learn how to talk to people, and you talk to teeth, and you start saying, well, you know, the occlusion and the curve of Spee and the curve of Wilson and the non-balancing occlusion and the non-balancing contacts and the protrusive movement. And patients are saying, well, what do you even say? And you know my big thing is when I talk to other people and other professions they start to talk to me about this. And I say, listen, man, I'm a dentist. I don't know anything else. Explain it to me again, because if you want my money, I better understand it. And if I don't understand it, you're not getting it. And they get very frustrated. People get very frustrated in other industries because, like, what do you mean you're so difficult? I'm like, you tell me, why does my HVAC need to be replaced? If it's working, tell me why, and I'm having my HVAC replaced right now in my office. Why? And people think that, you know, they start saying heat transducer and the blower and the and I'm like, I don't know what any of that means. Like, explain it to me. And we do this same thing every single day. Like, you do not have to read your consent form to the patient. You need to talk to them as if they were your brother, they or your sister. They were your mother; they were your father. And talk to them like a human being, that's all people want. It's the most vulnerable thing to sit in a chair. You know, they're not sitting in a chair like this. They're sitting in a chair like this, and it's so vulnerable, and you're just like you expect them to say yes to you. And getting back to I lost 30% to 40% of my practice that I purchased, and the history was from there. Like they say, you know, before something great happens, everything has to fall apart.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Would you say that was like your bottom part of your life? Like, you know, you lost everything you married?

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Not the part I didn't care about the patients. Really, the biggest thing of my life was my dream was to be a Florida dentist. I came from Canada. It was freezing. I want to live in the sun, right? And that was my dream to do cosmetic dentistry in Miami, Florida. And I had all of this skill and I worked so hard to be the best at what I thought I was, and nobody gave me the opportunity. I was just another associate. What was nice about being associate is that I used to come in with my coffee, my newspaper, and my bag, and everybody was happy to see me as opposed to today, not my staff, but I'm assuming a lot of people, they come in, everybody runs away, oh shit, the boss is here. It's a different mindset, and associates, they don't get it. You know, when you're an associate, you're living by today, and that's one of the problems that associates have. They say like, well, how much am I going to make today? And dentistry is not a sprint; it's a marathon. And there's going to be days where you're not going to make any money, and there's going to be days that you're going to lose money. You may have to write a refund check. You may have to redo something at your own cost. That's just the business that you're in. But if you understand that you build relationships with people, it's like, you know, when I first started, I wrote a book. It's called The Trust Factor about building trust with people. And I used to teach about all of these ways to talk to people in the hygiene room, how to build trust with your treatment plan. And, you know, today, like almost 20 years into this, I really don't have to do that as much because my patients know me. I did that 15 years ago. So, if you're a young dentist and you're an associate, use that opportunity not to make as much money as possible. Use that opportunity to hone your skills. And when I talk about hone your skills is not only your skills, just like communication-wise, try what works, learn about what works. Learn about nonverbal communication with people. But more importantly, like how do you become a full-arch dentist? If that's what you want to do, take out a shit ton of teeth. Give out bone grafts for really cheap, so you'll learn how to pack bone. You learn how to manipulate flaps. You learn how to do multiple different types of sutures. Because I can tell you when you see full-arch dentists and they show you their flap wide open and they have all of those implants put in, that is the easiest part of the procedure. The hardest part is how are you going to put it back together so that it looks good and it stays good. And I always tell my team, I'm like, this is the most important part, how we put everything back together. It's doing a screw, dude. Anybody could do that. It's it's a bit like one of the guys I used to go to dental school said, it's a post and core. It's a huge post and core; it's not that hard. But to put everything back together, to manipulate the tissue so that it has tension in certain areas and no tension in other areas, and it stays where you want it to stay, and it thickens where you want it to thicken, that is everything about full-arch dentistry. Because you can see people that are doing full-arch dentistry, you look at their cases, the tissue is gone, completely gone like six months, eight years. And that's why when I show my post-ops, I don't care about the X-ray. The X-ray is for dentists that treat teeth when I post ..., like look at my tissue. That is everything. If the tissues stay, that means I designed my prosthesis correctly. I educated my patient correctly on hygiene. I maintained them correctly. My occlusion is correct. All of this stuff that everything comes into it. And really, I would say that probably like real implant dentistry. And when I say, by real implant dentistry is not oral surgery, implant dentistry, periodontics, implant dentistry, general dentistry, implant dentistry, but a real implantologist, implant dentistry that involves surgery, restorative dentistry, and lab, that is probably the hardest thing in all of dentistry. So yes, the money is fun. Like I want to do what you do. Hell yeah. I also want to go to the marathon, to the Ironman and wait at the finish line and cross with you, but that's not the way it works, man. You got to really, really study your craft. And if you don't study your craft, you're never going to be great. You're going to get burned. And that's what happens, people get burned. And it's not fair because there's a lot of money involved.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You know, you're so true about the money involved because people actually putting their house, they like taking out like HELOCs from their houses, right, and their homes where they live, and they're trying to get this procedure done. If you are like one of those weekend warriors, I mean, you got to understand there are limitations. And I love the fact that you are like, hone onto your skills.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Yeah, you know, we talk so poorly about our dentist friends that go and take a course on the weekend. I mean, when else do you want them to take it? The weekend is when they're not treating their patients. It's when they're able to like, breathe. But I think we can worry, or is probably, we're referring to somebody who went Friday and Saturday and then decided he's an expert.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, that's exactly what I meant, you know?

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
And it's important for us to say that because, like, what else do you want me to take a course? MDs also take courses on weekends, you know.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hey, I did all the weekends. You know, I did, like, several weekends, right? And nothing wrong with that, but I never called myself an expert till I did not put in the hours and the years.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Amen.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love into getting that craft like, you know, like perfected. So you went from your office. So, let's dive into your XCell process, man. I mean, I love this stuff here. Yeah, I've been using it for about a year. I'm sold. I mean, I try so many different systems out there. I mean, this is, like, no joke. I even had, like, my lab guy coming out do photogrammetry for me. But ever since I started using your product, photogrammetry is out of the window. So let's talk a little bit about that. So, how did you get started with this?

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Oh, man, like I mentioned before, when I was doing full-arch dentistry, I was doing it like everybody else. Take the teeth out, place the implants, do a denture conversion, grind the shit out of the denture, trying to make it fit. Patient always ended up like this, then patient goes home. After that grueling 16-hour surgery, comes back, you got to take everything off. Hopefully, it didn't fail and then start all over again. Start taking all the records and the bite rims and the wax and the this. And I said to myself, If I'm going to scale this, this process is not scalable. It's impossible. Like imagine I did I, you know, I, 20, 30 arches a month like that, like okay, the surgery you can do, but how are you going to restore it? You know, and I think that implant dentistry hasn't changed. Before I started pushing this whole digital thing, which I believe I was really the first one that ever did this. And I'll tell you about this in a second, but implant dentistry didn't change because it was controlled by surgeons, and surgeons just placed the implants, gave them the immediate denture, and it was someone else's problem. All of the funds were usually eaten up by the surgery, and the restorative dentist, which was usually the general dentist or the prosthodontist, had to, like, deal with whatever money small money was left for the patient to restore them, and it was a loss leader. The lab bills were good. Hybrid was anywhere between $7500 to $12,000. That's what it cost. And I would say 2008, 2009, that's what you had to pay. The components were crazy. Gold was crazy, zirconia wasn't as nice, and if you did use zirconia, you had to use it as a substructure. And then the guy had to layer the whole thing. And then everything broke two years later, and it was just like, this is not fun. Like, I'm just going to do scaling and root planing a single crown with my CEREC, and I'm going to call it a day. I don't need the stress in my life, but I loved it. I loved doing it. So I said to myself, enough; I need to figure this out. And I literally deep-dove into digital dentistry. And I think that when the trios came out, trios three, and when the Roland machine started to become actually affordable, not 50, but Roland 51 became available, it was actually financially feasible for us to actually do something like this. The problem is in 2015, 2016, when I started inquiring about this stuff, everybody said to me, no, it doesn't work. And I said to myself, we do full arch of teeth with a scanner. Why doesn't it work with implants? And the literature continuously, even to today, or even the people that have photogrammetry, will say it is not possible. And I just take out the thousands of X-rays that I have, and I show it to them, and I show them the post-ops, and it is possible. And in 2024, like, I don't need to do that anymore. But in 2016, 2015, when I started to teach this, everybody said, I've doctored my X-rays. I lied about the cases. It wasn't true, and it was just like as I started amassing the cases, people started saying, whoa. So the first thing I started doing was, how am I going to acquire the data correctly? It wasn't even about manufacturing or designing yet, so I needed to master how do I acquire it, and I started studying what was wrong with the internal scanner and to today, what's wrong with the neuro scanner? So I solve that problem. Then I went into the manufacturing because I wasn't really interested in design, and design was like just I felt like it was root canals. If you don't do it every single day, you don't spend the time. And it was too cheap to outsource even to today. It's just so cheap to outsource it. So, I started doing manufacturing because manufacturing was the bottleneck that stopped me. When you send it to the lab, they used to say to you, it's going to be ready in two weeks. And when I started visiting labs, I'd never been inside a lab. And what you realize that happens in the lab is they have these little bins and they're stacked up one next to each other and say one, today is Friday, and the due date is Sunday. It's been sitting there for about 12 days, and they work on it on the last two days. And I said, well, why are you making me wait two weeks? Why can't I just schedule it correctly? Because it really only takes you two days to do it, because I used to think that they worked on my case for two weeks straight and I'm like, how are they making any money? Two weeks of charging me $100 a crown doesn't make any sense. And then I started realizing how labs are. They don't have a good management system. That's why it takes them two weeks to do it, especially smaller labs. So, I started looking into manufacturing. I said, well, if I can buy a mill, because when I started, the mills used to cost half $1 million, and they were massive, probably the size of this office that I'm sitting in today. Most dental offices don't have room. Most dental offices, I would assume, are I haven't been in a lot of dental offices, but probably 1000 to 1200 square feet. I would say an average dental office, right? If you're like in middle of nowhere, real estate is free. You can have a million. You know, if you're in Manhattan, you like you work like this, right, right? Anyhow, so I started getting into manufacturing. That was pretty eye opening because I thought I had a CEREC and I knew how to manufacture, which is not true. So, I really started studying this. And manufacturing and milling is really something that it's a craft. It's an art. Just last night, we figured something else out to make the workflow even easier for people. And this is, like I told you before, we got on air yesterday was like massive eye-opening, like so many breakthroughs that came through in milling, design, acquisition, like crazy stuff that I'm going to be showing in August at Full Arch Raw, that it was like, wow, I can't believe I'm doing it the other way this whole time. And I know if I didn't figure out, nobody's figuring it out because I work with people all the time and they have no idea to this day, everybody's just like taking little pieces, and they're not weekend warriors. You know what? They are social media warriors. They look on the internet, they see a picture, they see a video, and they think they know it. I told somebody, you need to come to my course in August. He said, oh, I'm really busy. I have this, I have that, and meantime does not a mill does not acquire, does nothing. He goes, well, in the meantime, I'll just be looking at the stuff you pump out on social media. I'm like, dude, this stuff I show on social media is not even less than 1% of what I'm doing, and it's done for a reason. Why would I show you everything? It's bad for business anyhow. So I started doing manufacturing, and we cracked that code, and just lately, I started doing designing to crack that code. And when I say when I crack that code, it's not about learning how to do it. It's learning about how to do it efficiently. Because, you know, at the end of the day, I'd rather be doing podcasts with you. I'd rather be on Google. I'd rather be on playing basketball with my son. I'd rather be swimming. I'd rather be doing something else other than standing in front of a computer doing this. But if I can do it really, really quickly and really, really efficiently and really, really well, why wouldn't I take that on?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Exactly. So your manufacturing, what made you start with that, man? I mean, like a lot of dentists, they'll be like, hey, I can just give it to my lab, or I can just order it from here. What was the thought process behind you with saying, hey, I want to manufacture this thing here, and I don't want a third party doing it?

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
I would say that I don't know if the word paranoid is, but I always I have this fear that one day everything's going to be taken away. And I feel that if I'm not prepared for disaster, disaster will eat me alive. In my career, I've had a lot of disasters to the point where I almost lost my whole career, when I injured my arm, where I defied all odds, and I wasn't supposed to operate for six months to a year. I was operating in three weeks because I took my health and my own hands. And in terms of manufacturing, specifically, when COVID hit, and I had 90 days where I could not produce a dollar in my practice, yet I had all of these full arches that I had started that were time to be restored. Now, okay, if I have 20 arches that need to be restored, okay, 20 arches that say $5,000 an arch, do the math. It's 100K, right? Yeah, it's 100K, and that's each month. That's $300,000 that I would have had to come up with out of my operating account when the practice is not making any money to restore these patients. And if I hadn't set up myself to be able to manufacture this on my own with my own time, which all I had was time during COVID, who knows if I would still be open? Who knows if I would have the savings that I have? Who knows if I would have had what I had? Who knows? Because dentistry is almost like a restaurant business. If you don't plan correctly, you could be done in a month if you don't have the reserves to be able to be there. And in full-arch dentistry, it's not like general dentistry where you okay, you'll just keep cranking the single crowns. You could have a CEREC; you could outsource the crown to China for like, I don't know, 20 bucks, 10 bucks and still survive. But when you're in full-arch game, there's no laboratory that's not going to do this for like less than $3,000 that you would be proud of putting this in the mouth, right? An average $5000, a good one, $10,000. Like that's just what it costs now, you have no income, and you owe these people these restorations, and that money is gone. What are you doing? So I felt that that was the first thing. And the other thing is that I really enjoy it. Like I told you in the beginning, I was like, I felt like a hypocrite when I put it into people's mouths, and it wasn't me that did it, because the patients don't know that there's a lab technician behind it. They're like when they think the lab, they think it's a room in your office. They don't, they think it's all you. And when they said, oh my God, Dr. John, you did such a good job. They never say that when they look at the X-rays of my implants, where they look at the margins of my crowns, because that's really what means we did a good job. Our impression was right, our placement was correct, but then we'll look at the thickness of our tissue. They don't look at the occlusion. They don't know any of this stuff. They just look at the aesthetics of the teeth. And I never did that; it's hypocritical on a daily basis. So again, my dream was always to work with the lab technician in my office, but we just don't speak the same language. Dentists and lab technicians don't speak the same language on a general basis. They just don't. There's like this massive animosity, the technicians taking too much from the dentist. The dentist is making too much compared to the lab. And it's this constant battle. And I tried, man. I tried for years to get people to work. I've had in-house lab technicians. I've had conversations with labs. They're not bad people. We just speak two completely different languages, and we're doing the exact same thing. So, for me, I just felt like it wasn't going to be successful. So I needed to figure out to do that. And I'm also very impatient. Like if I put in a prototype on Monday, I want to finish the case on Thursday. I don't want to think about it anymore. I finish the case. On to the next one, on to the next one, on to the next one. And that's the freedom that this gives me. I like, I love freedom, I hate owing anybody money. I hate having to rely on somebody else. And there's so many things we have to rely on as it is in a dental office. The less I have to rely, the better it is for me. That's awesome.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So what's next for you and your XCell products? I'm always looking forward, like, what's coming up.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
The two latest things that we came out with is I redesigned the scan body. You know, I was the first one to ever invent and patent a cup specific scan body. You know, scan body is one of the biggest errors that Intraoral scans has is that the scan body isn't picked up correctly. So with my teeth's caps, they will always be picked up, and the triangles will always be perfect. So we came up with the scan body. When I originally made it, I put a really small head on top to be able to temporize very easily, but we found in some cases that if you scan too fast because it's so small, the scanner doesn't pick it up as sharp. So what we did was we changed the head to be our beloved scan body, which was my original scan body. It still has a different cuff heights. It has different colors. I've also invented something called the Power Tax screw that allows you to I love those reference your bite reference your pre-op and post-op. We made it in two pieces. You can even use the power screw if you buy the one piece. As a bone generation guide to be able to let you to take a bone out, it's the only bone tacking screw that is multidirectional that you don't have to screw it in, like with a Phillips head, and go straight through. It has my Powerball head on top, so you can change the angle to 30 degrees. So if the patient is back there and you can't get your instrument back, you can still angle it and be able to get it in. So imagine going like this to the side of the head. And not having to put the screw through the patient's cheek. And that's really it. We have Powerwall 2.0, which, surprisingly, a lot of people haven't jumped on. I think it's just a really better screw. I have no, 1.0 is amazing.

Dr. Noel Liu:
What's the difference with a 1.0 and 2.0?

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Yeah. So the difference between 1.0 and 2.0 is that the screw is exactly the same. The difference is the shaft on the inside has one extra feature. You know, as our world is going to hell is on fire, as I call it, money is getting very, very tight. And you know that it's getting tight and in full-arch dentistry, because what's happening is the companies are investing so much money in what we call these resin materials to be able to print in-house, be able to generate this in-house. And really, that's really led by people not having enough money to pay for full arches. And dentists, I need to figure because they don't know how to mill, because they don't know how to layer porcelain, they know how to do composite. So if they can buy a printer for $10,000 and they can use a resin that's as strong as enamel, if not stronger, then it should make sense, and I should start to use it. The problem is, is that how do they hold these things in? And if you use a tie based on any printed or PMMa material, it just doesn't work. It will dibond it will break less on resin wear more on PMMa, but when it does dibond, the restoration is cooked. So what we found was these restorations innately resin more than PMMa, because again, PMMa you still got a mill, but more people are using resins innately. These resins, they're flexible. It's just the way they are. They're very, very, very flexible. And what happens is when the patient actually occludes on these, the restoration microscopically goes like this. And when the restoration microscopically goes like this, your screw goes like that. And then you're more likely to have screw loosening with any screw. Now you'll have the least amount of screw loosening with my screw. So what we've done is we've created this extra screw-loosening feature that you can use if you want. And the way that you would want to use it is if you actually talk Powerball 2.0 to 20 Newton centimeters, it acts exactly like Powerball 1.0. It uses the Powerball head to clamp down the restoration and hold everything down. Now, if you have a restoration that you're like, I know this guy isn't going to be in a long-term temp, or I know this guy's in zirconia, and he's really grinding, and he's more likely to screw loosening. The second you go to 25, the screw just goes just slightly deeper into the seat. It engages a very, very small five-degree cone to allow it to have that extra screw-loosening feature, and that's really the difference.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So it could go up to 25.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Yes. These are the Powerball 2.0. I talked to 25 all the time because I want that extra feature.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And that's not available in 1.0.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
No, because it's not part of the 1.0 body. The 1.0 body is just, is a parallel shaft. And the reason it's a parallel shaft is because all of the forces, instead of going to the thread, it will go to the thicker part of the Powerball, which is right under the head of the Powerball. And you'll see when Powerball screw breaks, it never breaks deep down, like all other abutment screws which can never get out, it will break right at the top so that you can actually use an explorer and just turn it out. You can see it. It's designed that way. A lot of people don't know. They're like, oh, I buy the Powerball screw. It's good screw. It's bigger, it looks great. But there's so many things that I built into this. Why? Because I have problems. I'm a practicing dentist. And you said in the past, you know, you tried so many different systems. All the other systems are not invented by dentists. And if they are quote-unquote invented by dentists, they either copied me, or they're just regurgitating corporate words. That's just the truth, and they know it, and I know it. And my system was developed from the ground up, from my years of experience and my years of messing up and my years of learning what's right and what's wrong, and really building all that in. And for us, as dentists, to rely on some engineer at Nobel, at Straumann, at Three-i, at Zimmer, at all of these implant companies, to actually create anything is ridiculous because they don't live what we live, you know, they don't live. That's why I would say the best practice management software is the one created by dentists. The best impression material is probably the one created by dentists. All of these things that dentists create is because we know the problem and nobody can understand. I can tell you my problem, right, doc? But if you don't live my problem, your head's not going to be like this. You're going to be like, what is he talking about? But the whole podcast, you're going like this because you live my life and I live your life. We live together. We have the same issues. I don't care where in the world you are. It's the same thing.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You know, it reminds me of that part when one day when I was ordering those VHS scan bodies, remember that tax crew? And then I can't remember if you remember or not, but I was, like, using breadcrumbs. And, you know, those little breadcrumbs are, like, all over the place. And when I saw that VHS, and I'm like, all right, what do I do with this VHS? Is it a scan body, or is it, you know, I use it for reference? And you were like, hey, you can use it for both. And I was like, man, this is awesome. I mean, you know, these are the kind of things that I was like, you know, just wowed by when I saw your product, seriously.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
And true or false? Are you wowed about it because you think it's cool? Or are you wowed by it because it solved the problem that you had?

Dr. Noel Liu:
It solved every single issues I had with full-arch. So my photogrammetry, that's the first thing I was telling him, my photogrammetry went out the window. I mean, what's the point? I mean, literally, I can say this factually that you saved me 40 grand from investing into one, right? I was having my lab guy come in, and he kept telling me, hey, why don't you go buy one? You know, you go buy one. And I have, like, you know, multiple locations. I cannot buy a photogrammetry for every single location. It doesn't make sense. And your system helped me scale. My man, I mean, I can say that wholeheartedly. Your system helped me scale every single location, so thank you, man.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
I'm so happy to hear that because, you know, I told you in the beginning about changing the brand of dentistry. Dentists, they practice by themselves, at least for me. I'm a solo practitioner. I have a small team. I have one office. I'm busy enough; thank God I used to have three offices. It was too much for me. It doesn't work for my brain, but one of the goals that I created for this was like, there's just so many patients I can treat. There's just so many lives that I can change. But if I can create something that other dentists can use, not only will I make the dentists' life easier, but they will change other people's lives. So whenever I see a restoration with my Powerball screw, that use my system, you do not understand how happy it makes me. Not because you send me 200 bucks to buy these parts. I don't give a shit about that. That's not what I'm in it for.

Dr. Noel Liu:
... Value.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Is because I can change your life. Like when I die, you'll remember that I had an impact on you, and I never met you in person. And your patient that's walking around with a restoration with my screw or my process, I made an impact on them through you. And to me, that's everything. That's my reason. Other than my family, that's my reason for being. If I can make an impact on people and make the world a better place with what I thought of that God gave me, I'm good. I'm happy. That's all I want.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's preach, man. Hey, so I want to end with this one thing here. You got a course coming up in August. What's that about? And who's it for?

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Yes, so it's FullArchRaw.com. It's going to be in Miami Florida on August 8th and ninth. I am going to be partnering with one of my students, Dr. Ryan Dunlop, who has really taken digital dentistry to another level, to a point where him and I get the same results. Mine's better, but him and I try to find the same result, but he does it in a completely different manner. And when I talk about a different manner, that means that the way that he acquires data, the way that he manufactures, you know, the size of the people that he uses, meaning how big is his office, right? He's taken his methods and created massive institute to be able to do that and gives courses all the time, and that's what he loves to do. He has multiple associates, and it teaches. And what you'll learn is you'll be able to learn full-arch digital dentistry from marketing, from acquisition, from milling. I have a section on how to close. If a patient says to you, I need to talk to my wife, what do you say to them? You say, okay, fine, call me back. Patient says, oh, let me think about it. What do you say? And in full-arch dentistry, it's different than a single crown. And I'll have a whole section on how to close. I'll have a whole section. Um, Ryan's going to do a whole section on marketing. I'm going to be doing a section on Intraoral scans. I can say to you, I'm gonna say this. If you're brand new in this game, it's gonna be way over your head.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Got it.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
If you want to be like, wow, come. If you're in this game and you're like, I've done a couple arches, I want to scale these arches. I don't know what to buy, how to do it, where I should go, intraoral photogrammetry. If I should even go into this, which is probably everybody in this world, come to this. If you're just a general dentist that doesn't even want to have anything to do with full-arch, it's not for you. If you're a general dentist that doesn't know what an intraoral scanner is, this is not for you. If you're a general dentist that doesn't understand what a multi-unit abutment is, this is not for you. If you're a general dentist that does implant dentistry, that does full-arch dentistry, not at a crazy level. Even if you do one arch a month or one arch a year, and you understand that you would love to do more of it because you enjoy it, this is where you want to go to, because it's going to be like a fire hose. Because usually, I give my course two days by myself. I now have to share the stage with somebody else and give the same amount of information.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So someone attending better be prepared.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
You got to sleep a week before you come for this, but this is going to be, you know, it's going to be the truth. There's no corporate sponsors at all. There's nothing wrong with sponsors, but we want it to be able to just disseminate 100% the truth. That's it. Like, this is what it is. This is what we're going to do. This is what we do. And you can ask any question. The location is unbelievable. We rented out a movie theater. Super high-end movie theater with reclining seats. You're going to have your private waiter come and bring you food. Unlimited popcorn, unlimited drinks. It's not going to be like sloppy food. You're going to order from a menu. They're going to bring it to your seat. It's going to be like super high-end.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So wait a minute, you're going to have this course in a movie theater.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
This is a show, and it's not just random movie theater with shitty seats. Imagine like Emirates first-class seats and stuff. Full reclining couch, full table, full food, unlimited popcorn. Because this is really going to be a show, and it's going to be something in dentistry that nobody's ever done. And mark my words, after I do this course, everyone's going to rent a movie theater because it's genius. The screen is huge, the seats are amazing, the seats are amazing. Everything is just going to be great. The food is there. The location is in Miami, Florida. I mean, why not? We have a couple spots left. I think there's like 7 or 8 spots left, and then it's over. I can add your chair anymore, but you legit, if you're not going to come for the education, come for the entertainment, because you're gonna love this.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You said August 7th and 8th, right?

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
August 8th and 9th. Thursday, Friday.

Dr. Noel Liu:
8th and 9th. Okay.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
8th and 9th. It's not a weekend. 8th and 9th. You get the weekend to chill with your family.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Got it, August 8th and 9th. Let me see. That's a Thursday and Friday.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, man. You enticing me on this here.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
You, your friends, anybody who's gonna come. I'm telling you, this is gonna be. It's even a time to just relax with like-minded people, with like-minded people. Because the people I can tell you, the people that registered, they are amazing. It's like a mastermind of the best of the best that come to these courses, because they know. And to be the best, you want to be with the best so that you can be better and better and better.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Alrighty, I'm definitely gonna try my best to block that calendar, man. I mean, this sounds amazing. Who else? And then the guy who's actually, I'm using his system, right?

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
You have all the answers in front of you. The only one that can stop you is yourself.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Exactly 1,000%. Hey, Jonathan. Thank you so much. I mean, this was an honor and a pleasure to hear your story and the whole process. This is such a great, great thing.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate that.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I'm definitely going to put your link up and also the link to the course as well. So, any last tips before you go?

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
All I can say is we live in a world of social media where what you think you see is real, and it may or may not give you anxiety about it. All I can say to you is love what you do, have passion, and I promise you everything will work out. Don't worry about all the noise. Don't worry about everything else. There's going to be challenges, but you can barrel right through them, as long as you love what you do, you are passionate, and you have the right people around you. So check those three boxes and I promise you you'll be successful.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Man, that's preach right there. I appreciate you.

Dr. Jonathan Abenaim:
Thank you so much.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hey everyone, we're going to land the plane. This was an amazing, amazing episode. Definitely check us out on our next one and make sure to like and subscribe. We'll see you next time.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For Show Notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDs.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Noel Liu:

Noel Liu, a graduate of NYU College of Dentistry, is a highly skilled and compassionate general dentist and co-founder of Secure Dental with multiple locations. With years of experience in the field, Dr. Liu has established a reputation as a trusted and knowledgeable dental professional.

 

In addition to his dental practices, Dr. Liu is also very passionate about mentoring and guiding his associate doctors in their transition from students to clinicians.  He has built a successful framework for model, mimic, and mastery flow to help them achieve their personal, professional, and financial goals and efficiencies.

Things You’ll Learn:

  • This podcast is for dental professionals looking to make the most out of their dental career, their wealth, and freedom.
  • Entrepreneurs usually learn how to grow their business the hard way. 
  • The Secure Dental Podcast is available everywhere you find your favorite podcast shows. 
  • Secure Dental will publish two episodes per month. 

Resources:

  • Connect with and follow Dr. Noel Liu on LinkedIn.
  • Check out Dr. Noel’s website.
  • Visit Secure Dental’s website and learn more about them!  
Categories
Podcast

The Importance of Mentorship in Real Estate and Dental Practice Success

Summary:

Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast!

This new show will bring you conversations with the brightest minds in the Dental and Business Communities. Hosted by Dr. Noel Liu, this show will dive deep into practical tips to grow your business. Many entrepreneurs wished they had a guidebook or someone to help them understand how to grow their businesses, Well you’re in luck because this show will be exactly that!

Tune in twice a month and unleash your full potential!

Secure Dental_Simon Beylin.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental_Simon Beylin.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome back to another episode of our Secure Dental podcast. Like my intro, I am Dr. Noel Liu. I'm a general dentist. And today we have a very special guest, Dr. Simon Beylin. He's an endodontist, and now he's not seeing patients anymore. And now he owns Beylin Developments. But before we get started and pass the mic off to him, I would like to mention our sponsor, which is DentVia. It's a virtual dental assistant administration company that assists with back-end office tasks. Definitely visit them at DentVia.com. It's www.DentVia.com. Let's get right on to it. Simon, I'll let you do the intro. Tell us a little bit about how you got started, your dental world, and then what you're doing these days.

Dr. Simon Beylin:
So I started my path of dentistry. I first became a general dentist. I did a year of GPR, and then practiced for a few years, and went back, and became an endodontist. From there, my wife saw a pediatric dentist, so we started building our own offices and through the process of just doing our start-ups. I got my construction license and started building dental offices. So that's what got me into the world of building on my own. I grew up around construction. My father had a construction company, so I knew a little bit of the back-end of running a construction company, but we started building dental offices and just snowballed from there and started developing ground up real estate. And that's what we're doing now. We focus a lot of our efforts on our investment side on ground up development. So we still own our dental offices, but neither one, neither my wife or I are clinical at this point.

Dr. Noel Liu:
How many offices do you have now?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
We have two ... offices. So there, at this point, there are associate-driven, and we do in-house GA. They're very busy ... offices. So it keeps us busy from the ... side. And then we're not in our practices. We're on the investment side and in real estate.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Nice. Tell me a little bit about you. You were an endodontist, right?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Do you still maintain your license or you give that up?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Still have a dental license. If I had to, I could still go in there and do root canals. We all get old. It's like an hourglass eventually runs out of sand. So I had some issues with, a little bit of arthritis. And luckily I had enough going with development. So I just focused more of my efforts and more of my energy on that.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So you were a endodontist. You were also developing real estate at that time, is that correct? You were doing both at one time.

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Yeah. So since 2015 we started building commercial. 2019, we started going a little bit more towards the residential side. Now most of what we're doing is ground up multifamily. I still have a little bit of commercial here and there. I shy away from commercial. It's just not my bread and butter. But I purchased land that has commercial aspects to it. It has a commercial aspect to it. Commercial tenants are great if you can have a medical practice or a dental practice, and you can have a triple net lease and a long-term 15-year lease and not have to worry about tenants and toilets. It has its benefits. But the vacancy periods are also much longer. So if you're building a residential ground up development and you do all of your homework correctly, your demographics are well, there's a need for housing in that area. You'll build it. You shouldn't have any issues leasing out your units. But you can build, you build commercial and you get stuck with an empty building for a while. So if I am building any ground up commercial and I have a few projects that way right now is I want to lease 60% of the building leased out before I put a shovel in the ground or. Yeah, I have another building which is multi use. So we have three commercial units on the lower level, 16 units of residential on top. So on that one we have all the units leased out even before we start construction. But I'd be more willing to build something like that because the residential can support the commercial if it's empty for a while.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So you are building basically like a mixed use real estate where there's, and then there's residential also. Is that correct?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
One of our projects is in a downtown district, and that's what they wanted to see. That's the New York style, where you have commercial the lower levels and residential atop; the three story building. In that town, there is no availability for commercials. We had no issues leasing it out. And the residential is also, most of it's going to be pre-leased before it becomes.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So let me ask you here, Simon. You are the expert here, right, with building. So when you are talking about like 60%, like somebody starting out who is looking into, Hey, I want to develop this commercial space; how are you finding these tenants? Is it broker? Is it like you just put a sign up there? What's going on there?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
I hate to sound like a poacher, but first things first, you got to try to poach some clients that are nearby. One of the buildings I have, there's a med spa in town. My wife and I are both patients of the med spa. They mentioned that they want to move. They outgrowned their space. And here I am with a commercial space that's going to be going right down the street. So I just approached them. And if you could do it on your own without realtors, they take 6% of the entire lease period. So if you're talking about a 15-year lease, 6% is a decent amount. So if you could sign some of those leases first on your own, I always say just look around town; maybe some businesses that look like they're busting at the seams and knock on some doors. And beyond that, then you have to start looking at commercial brokers or I make posts on Facebook. So here's this building, here's a rendering of it. Have a very nice rendering of what you want there. I kind of have an idea of what the town wants to see in that area, and then bring that to the different Facebook groups of that town and maybe 3 or 4 towns around it. And that, for me, has filled up all of our buildings. We've never, to this day, have used a commercial broker, even though I did have phone calls with two of them this morning.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So let me go back again. So commercial brokers are taking 6% of the entire length of the lease? Is that what you said?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
In this area, that's what they're looking for.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Wow. Is that area dependent or is that like just?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
It's area dependent and it is negotiable. But at the same time, if you have a commercial real estate agent who's going to get you $5 more per square foot, and that already takes care of their 6%, I'm fine with that. People, if you're going to, if I've got issues filling it and you could fill it at a higher rate than I can fill it out, by all means, go ahead. But if I can put up a couple Facebook posts and knock on a couple doors on my own and I don't need a commercial agent to do it, I'll definitely try that on my own first. I definitely knock on doors first. Economic Commission for specific towns will absolutely be your best friend here. They will know businesses that want to move. They'll know businesses that want to come to the town, and they'll give you a list. For our mixed use, they reach out to us first, saying they have people that want to take over the entire first floor, and they gave us a list. These are people looking for commercial space in this town. I mean, I'm building in New Hampshire and in Maine, so we have much smaller towns than different parts of the US. So a lot of these smaller economic boards, they'll know who's looking for space in those towns.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So who do you go to for a source, to tap into this source?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
We have, it's called the Economic Affairs Commission. It's a separate board in the towns of these small towns in this area, in New England. ...go to the town planning Board and ask who's on your economics board, and they'll give you the person's information. And they're always willing to help. And that doesn't cost you a dime.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Wow, wow. Simon, you're dropping some serious nuggets over here, man, for a lot of people, actually, who are looking into this strategy. So for dental space, the space that you currently have with the two pediatrics; is that something which you currently own?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
I do, I own them. So if you're doing it for owner occupied, you have many different avenues to go out that. If you're looking for SBA loans, which if that's your last resource, is a great resource because you could come in with 0% down. And if you're going to occupy 50% or more, they'll give you a loan 0% down. So that's a very easy way to get into commercial without any outlay, because they'll run the numbers and your 50% from your dental practice should more than cover the note for the entire building. Then anything that comes in from the other 50% is just gravy. So that is how we actually enter into the commercial side was we purchased the condos in which we have our offices. So I purchased three condos for one of my offices and one condo for the other one; built them out. I just, I couldn't imagine, we had a pretty nice build outs to not be in full control of the lease ownership. So that is a nice way in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So it's all about the control. So let me ask you this here. So when you do buy this land and you do a ground up, how do you differentiate which lender and how hard is it to get those construction loans; number one. Number two is: Would you want to put your one of those favorite questions a lot of people ask is, would you want to put the dental office on the same note as your real estate? Or would you want to have them separate? But if you go with the SBA route, then it's got to be the same, correct? And then if you go different routes then you could put them separate. So what's your expertise? You pretty much know this inside out.

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Well, we built our first office; that was 2015. That was just as we're coming out of 2008. So real estate was still get all the regulations that were following. And you had to, actually, at that time, you had to separate it. So the real estate loan was, we used live oak for the real estate and part of the construction loan and Bank of America for the practice loan, and that was very common at that time. Bank of America was not an SBA loan. It was a better product. But they couldn't give you 25 years if you wanted it. So it's a much shorter loan. But it was an SBA. So it would have been nice to have done everything with a lender like B of A, but at that time it was just an absolute requirement. There wasn't a way around it in this area. So we went that path, where you had SBA lender or a different lender for your real estate and a portion of the construction and then practice loan for the other part.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Is that what's preferred?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
I don't know. If it's up to me, they may have a little bit better percentage. You have to bring less to the table. But if you're talking about a loan like B of A, they fund you, they ask for your documents at the end of one year. They see that you're doing well. We do well as dental professionals and they move on, where if it's an SBA loan, it's every quarter, you have to reach out to your account. They need reports. It's, there's no way around it. It's a federal loan. So it's just, it's a lot more of a headache. So I always say if you can avoid SBA loans, you absolutely want to avoid.

Dr. Noel Liu:
At all costs, right? The only reason I'm asking you, Simon, is because one of those questions a lot of people ask is that if I'm going to do a practice loan and I do a real estate loan, I want them separate so that if ever I wanted to sell the real estate by itself, I want to refi it, it's always a separate deal. What's your experience like? Would you recommend separate or would you recommend the same entity or even the same bank? What's your recommendation?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
If you can't split them because you think that, so you're on the residential side. So it's think of a value add when you get a client in there. But just think about it the same way. But if you're doing this with commercial, we go in there, we increase the value of it. We have a lease that we get signed. Once that lease is signed and you've shown that you're a good client, a good tenant for several years, there are companies now like DSOs, but just for real estate, that only purchase real estate that has a dentist or a medical doctor in that real estate. We, actually, spoke with a gentleman who runs something like that, Johnny and I, when we were in Florida for that podcast. That's all we look at. They only want to buy real estate where it's a dentist occupying it. That's their niche. So if you're doing it correctly and you're paying the, your proper amount of rent, which let's just say if you should be paying $35 a month for that rent, because that's what it would be if you didn't own the property next door. You added a lot of value to that commercial real estate, so now you can't sell it to one of those groups and take out quite a bit of equity and then go put it somewhere else. If your loans are tied together, it makes it a little bit messier, because now you have to close out the entire loan. So in that aspect, yeah, it works out very well.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So what would you say? Like some of these banks, they really want to put collateral on their real estate as well as a practice. And a lot of those times where it's a new dentist, right? They're looking into a practice first time. And the banks want to be like, Hey, I want to put that real estate and everything into one note. Is that something you would say it's okay to start off with, or would you still recommend, Okay, you got to have them separate?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
To me, honestly, I don't think it would matter because if you wanted to get some way out of it, I think there's ways to work around it either way. If I had to do it all over again, I would go for a shorter term notes with a non SBA lender. We have a great relationship with Bank of America. I would just do everything with Bank of America. But at the time, first practice, you're nervous. So it's, Oh, they're going to give me 25 years on the SBA note, and I don't have to put anything down. So let me just take that weight off my shoulders. But you get through the first year, Okay, I never had a day in the red. I should have just taken a shorter note, dealt with less headaches for the next ten years. You know what I mean? That would be my personal recommendation. Not that it helps you sleep at night when you don't have to put 10% down or 20% down and puts a lot longer. So just, I guess it goes to your comfort level.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's especially for the real estate side, right? Putting those down. Okay. Well, let's switch gears. Let's talk about what's going on currently with you. So currently, you're doing like big developments with multifamily. I've noticed, I've seen that some of those posts on our Facebook group. So let's talk a little bit about that. How did you get started in this from commercial?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
My father's company was, they did residential, commercial, and most of it was all new construction. It was a electrical subcontractors. So pretty large company in California. So I grew up on job sites. And what we build on the commercial side for dentistry, they say in terms of construction, it's the most difficult construction you can have because our outlets need to be in a specific spot for a piece of equipment that's going to go into that little cubby. Chair needs to be set exactly where it needs to go. It's very detailed, like 3500 square foot dental office. I could have a 70-page plant set. Residential is much easier to build, and I always knew I wanted to go that way, but I thought I would own apartment buildings and do value add. But it's just so difficult in this area. Like a 15-year-old building in the New England area. It's taken a beating. It's just, the weather cycles that we have. It's already an old building. They require a lot of maintenance. And people, the competition is fierce for a good building that you want to do; value add being 3 to 7 years and just do the typical cycle that you see. It's very difficult with the assets that we have here. I wanted to start in my backyard. I know plenty of people who invest out of state and they do very well with that. But I thought for the first ones I want it to be, whatever I did, I wanted to be a little bit more control in my own backyard. So I couldn't find anything that was decent for value add. So I reached out to somebody who his name is Greg Dickerson. He's my mentor and friend at this point. But I told him, I have this background. I can build, give me a set of blueprints, and I can build you whatever you want. I don't have a problem doing that, but I don't know how to take a piece of dirt. I don't know how to go through the entitlement process, which is a different beast on its own. Get it approved, which is where most of the profit and development is made; is that approval. You can flip the dirt once you have approvals and have a nice exit and never build it. Yeah. So that's a portion I didn't know. Give me the dirt with the blueprints and the approvals. I can build you whatever you want, but how do I get from the steps I haven't done? So I signed up with him for mentorship for a year, and he held my hand through the first project. But even after the first year, we're still, I don't have a single project that I don't run by him at this point. We just go through it, make sure I have somebody else's eyes who's been doing this for over 35 years, have his eyes on it, and make sure I'm not getting into any deals that aren't going to make.

Dr. Noel Liu:
How did you find him?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
I was on a beach in Florida, and I'm like, I'm ready to take this to the next level, but I have no idea. Let me look for textbooks or podcasts or online courses. And I found he had an online course. It was like 100 bucks. So I downloaded everything and I listened to every last one of his videos on the flight back up. And then as soon as I landed, I'm like, I got to see if I can hire this guy to coach me. And sure enough, he had a coaching program, a mentorship program. I landed, sent him an email. A week later, we were on like a dating phone call because he has a phone call with you first to make sure it's going to work. He doesn't just take any client. We had that phone call. I gave him my background. I was amazed about how much he knew about dentistry. He has a lot of dental and medical clients and probably know of quite a few of his clients. Joe Fairless, who writes the best book on syndication and is one of his clients. Viking Capital is one of his clients. So a lot of people that I followed for a while have been his coaching and mentorship clients. So we had a nice conversation. He knew a tremendous amount about dentistry and medicine and selling practices, and it just rubbed me the right way. And I signed up for a year and took a project through completion. And here we are now. Just, at this point, I don't think there's any development that I can't do without him, but we still just, we chat on a weekly basis.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Do you guys work together on a deal or is it just, he's just a mentor?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Oh, he's just a mentor at this point. He's, he did, I think 350 million of his own development. But we're talking about 80s and 90s. So in today's money, that's a few billion. It's a lot in today's money. So at this point, his life, he's strictly focused on coaching and mentorship. We do have a mastermind that we get on once a week, but he doesn't do any of his own deals at this point.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh that's awesome. So how difficult is it to get it from dirt to approval?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
I'll give you a couple examples.

Dr. Noel Liu:
A time frame. What are you looking at? A year? A few months?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
So it's funny. I have a project you've probably seen. I posted, it's 33 units in Windham, Maine. Windham, Maine is a small town, about 15,000 people, about ten miles outside of Portland, Maine. So we picked it because Portland's now has rent control and it's pushing all the developers out. No longer makes sense to, you can't make the deals pencil in Portland. So everybody's pushing out. And because of that the population is pushing out as well. So numbers made sense. My partner on that project brought me the project. I saw it the end of February. The end of May, I had four approvals, and July we had a shovel in the ground. So that's crazy fast. You have a town that has a major housing crisis. They want housing and they do something about it. I have another project in Windham, New Hampshire. Same town name, but different state. It's a town I live in. Where I bought the project. I've had it for almost three years. October will be three years. The person before me gave up ten years into it, and the person before him gave up 20 years into it. So 33 years to get 45 units approved. So those are your opposite ends of the spectrum. You have a completely we hate development town to we will do whatever it takes to get this housing crisis under control. And you just, you need to know which one you're going into. And I knew.

Dr. Noel Liu:
How do you find omething like that?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
You'll know from the beginning. You can go on to any planning board in the US, and you can watch. They all record their, almost any town that I've dealt with, they all have video cameras recording. And you go back years and watch all the recordings. And you can see if they're approving projects in one meeting or they're approving projects over many years. And you can also see the amount of what's being built in a specific town. If you see a town's only giving, there are towns in Maine, right now, we're looking at another project that's 333 units, which, we're at the finish line of getting that under contract. I think we will get it. But the town is limited development there. Even though it's approved for 333 units, they're only letting you build 45 units a year. So the town, just their sewer systems are water. They haven't built up the infrastructure enough to allow more, a developer to do more than 45 units per year. So you have to find this stuff out before you start exchanging funds. And we always go under contract with minimal outlay of funds. So you always write your contracts that we don't exchange our funds until we have all of our building approvals. So the debt going's to shovel in the ground, that's the day that you're going to get your money. But we don't close until that happens.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, that's awesome. That's a great tip. So are you guys like trying to get those areas already pre leased out or is it just different story with multifamily?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Yeah. So we, about 3 or 4 months before you get your completions, you start leasing them out so we can start taking small deposits. $50 a unit just on reservations. And a lot of our three bedrooms on that project, we have six, three bedrooms. They're already all spoken for. They won't be available until October and they're already all spoken for. So we definitely pre-lease while we're still in construction.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, Simon, what does your team look like? That's a lot to undertake, right?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
There is. So you can do a lot of development from your home office. You don't make a huge team. Most of them can be outsourced. We're vertically integrated. So I not only do the development side, but I also have a construction company. So we do have people on my team. But Peter on my team, mainly his days are spent just looking for land. So he gets 1 or 2 deals across my desk a week. We'll put out offers on 1 or 2 a month and maybe 1 or 2 every quarter stick. So it's a numbers game. We try to fill the pipeline several years in advance, but that's all that Peter does. On the development side, all the people on my team are people I sell things out to. So we have a great civil engineers in New Hampshire. We deal with a group called the Dubay Group. It's a neighbor of mine, but they have one of the largest civil engineering firms. That's your best friend. Civil engineers know what land, oh, yeah, they know what land is available. They know who owns the land. They know what could be built on the land. They know more about dirt than I'll ever know. When I'm looking for deals, I'll always knock on my civil engineers doors first, because none of the stuff that I've purchased, not a single property, has ever hit the market. Ever. They've all either come from my civil engineers or land brokers that have just known of a piece of land and reached out to an owner for us. So you drive by, who owns that piece of dirt? You look it up on the town's website, then you send it to your land broker. Hey, find that, find this information. Let's give him an offer on that land. But we've never once put an offer on something that was listed. So it's.

Dr. Noel Liu:
What are some of the criterias for you and Peter that goes, Okay, out of the ten deals, this is the one I would have put an offer on?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
We just run the numbers. I try to say, Okay, we want to be 45 units and above, but sometimes the numbers on a 30 unit are amazing compared to a 300 unit. We just look at the numbers, we do our underwriting, we get quite detailed with the underwriting.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Is it location dependent?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
It's location dependent. Yeah, because if you want to build in certain towns, you're not going to build 300 units in the town that I live in. There's, we don't have water, we have sewers. So everything's all well and septic. So 45 unit development in town, like the one I live in, is a large development for this town. But then, two towns over, we have 170 units that we're building. That's part of a 360-unit development. So we purchased two buildings, and the gentleman that we purchased from is keeping one building on the property. But in that town, they allow 3, 4, or 500 unit apartment buildings. So we just look for the deals and start our underwriting. And if it makes sense, we move on to the next phase. But it's like anything else. With development, people think, Oh, I can overpay a little bit for the land. I'll make it up in the construction, I'll make it up in the engineering. And then the engineer comes in and that was over budget. It needs to make sense from the onset. So if land purchase doesn't make sense, don't move on to the next step. And architecture doesn't make sense because you're on the side of a hill and it's going to cost you tremendous amount more to design this because it's difficult, don't go to the next step. So every step needs to make sense before we move on to the next step because overruns always come up; construction overruns, engineering overruns, architectural overruns, time overruns. So if you're allowing it from the beginning, you're not leaving any cushion to have a little bit of contingency to get you through the finish line.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And how difficult are these lenders to deal with?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Lenders just because of our backgrounds as doctors, if you've been practicing for a while, they know that we're good for our money, we don't fail, and they think you're going to take that into anything else that you do. In my area, they're very conservative. So 2008 didn't hit hard here because builders are conservative here and lenders are conservative here. But where you have certain parts of the US where they'll lend you at a 1.1 DSER, they won't do that here. They want to see 1.3. So it's, Oh, we show them 1.3, they'll give you whatever you want. But if you want to show 1.1, they're gonna say, Oh, even with low rates, we wouldn't have given you that. And in today's market, we definitely don't want to give you that. We don't know what's going to happen. So they're a little bit just more conservative on their criteria. But if you meet the criteria, they want to lend; that's how they make money. So they've, we've dealt mainly with local banks and they've been very favorable with that.

Dr. Noel Liu:
What are they basing the 1.3 on? Projections, pretty much?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Yeah. So you'll give them projections of existing properties, newer properties that are built similar square footage. And they'll have a very, when it's ground up, the appraisals that we get, the guy spends a month and gives you a 70-page report on the appraisal. And it shows each and every single way. So the bank really relies a lot on the appraisal and the performance. And we're very conservative. Even though, I know I can get much higher rents than what I expect, I'd rather show more conservative rent and still show that high DESR if it makes sense. And the bank always comes back to us with the deals that Peter and I have done and say, Hey, you guys have this listed as $2,100 a month, but that development down the street that's ten years old is getting $2,300 a month. So that's the conversation you want coming from the bank, not the other way around. If you're trying to present them, Oh, I got a 1.8 DESR, but you put your rent at 3000 when they know that the area is only gonna support 2100. So you always want them to realize that you're being very conservative. So we do that in terms of the rent and also on the construction side. So we tell them that it's going to cost us more than what we think it's going to cost to build it, just doing the underwriting. And then we just take less funds if we have to during construction. So you're never going back and asking them for more. And so far, most of our banks that we've dealt with are excited to do more and more projects. You start inching towards their limit because all of these regional banks, they're typically 100 million limit. And if you have developments above that, they're going to partner with other smaller banks. But as long as you're under that limit, they'll continue to lend to you. That's how they make their bread and butter.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And you're still putting equity down, right?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
We are. I haven't raised for any of my deals thus far. Any deal that we have, it's been my money, my wife's money, or Peter's involved in a few of our deals. We just haven't had to raise. Eventually, we're going to start raising for our deals. It's just, haven't needed it at this point yet.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I feel what you're doing right here, Simon. It's, you have a really good delta when do it ground up versus buying an existing cash flow property. Because it's like everything that you're doing is brand new. And it's also the way you can actually project the ROI down the road. It's pretty significant. Like, do you agree with that statement?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
100%. We did a webinar with our HUD lender, and I'll go through that a little bit separately. But the premise of the entire podcast was we're getting into class A assets and a areas at a ten count. And even though everything that's happening today and they say it's going to have cap rates are going to continue going up and up, we're not seeing class A assets trading at a ten cap. You're not going to see that. I can sell that. We've got some ridiculous offers on the 33-unit that's not even completed yet. Just a gentleman older gentleman coming out of a 1031 who wants to purchase it and leave it for his kids. But we're getting into class A assets at a ten cap. That Delta is massive. And then if you want to, just you want to recycle your cash, we deal with HUD lenders that as soon as you're 90% occupied, they will rewrite the loan as if it's 100% occupied, and they'll go for a 35-year loan. And the interest rates are extremely low with HUD right now. 5, 5.5% today on HUD loan at 35 years. So you can't get out of them. So it's very difficult. So it is an assumable loan. So if you're going to sell a property for the first 15 years, there's massive prepayment penalties for 15 years. But typically it's going to be something that assumes that HUD loan if you do decide to sell it. But that's, you just recycle your cash out so you don't go down to 1.1 on the DSER, and they'll go 35 years. So the amount because of that delta that you get in a ten cap, and the amount of value that you have there, and they're going to value it at a five and a half cap because they're lending ar a 5.5%. So that's a huge delta that you take out tax free as long as you do the next real estate project. So that's how we've recycled our cash flow.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's amazing. Because if it's one of those trophy assets that you guys are building, you probably just want to keep it. If you're going to convert to a HUD, you might as well just keep it.

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Yeah. So that's, Peter and I know that if we're going down this road, we're keeping it for 15 years.

Dr. Noel Liu:
At least.

Dr. Simon Beylin:
At least 15 years. So I'm not going to pay that massive prepayment penalty. And they're a great lender. He lends in all 50 states, the gentleman that we work with. We just, we give him a heads up. So we're 3, 4, or 5 months away from leasing this asset. We expect to hit 90% at this time. So we start the paperwork, and then as soon as he's ready, he submits and look at that process.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Cool deal. Simon, for somebody who wants to get started, man, how do they get started?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
So development: you can do it two ways. You can either do it just as a developer. And if you speak to Greg, that's, if you don't own a construction company, he's going to tell you that's the way to do it, because a lot of developers, that's all they do. You're not going to get out there and start a construction company just to build your own stuff. It's not necessary. I had the construction company, so it just made sense. But you can definitely start looking for land. Look in an area that you want to build. Just reach out to some civil engineers, see if you can make something work. And then you have to find a GC. So with us being vertically integrated, I have a lot of control over the costs. So that is how we get our spread a little bit better. But even if I was going to sub it out to GC, you can find GCS that will manage the entire project for you from anywhere from 3 to 8%. So 3 to 8%, you still have a massive delta, and you have somebody managing the entire headache portion of construction for you. Just put together a team and it helps, if it's your first deal, you're trying to develop something from the ground up. If you've never built anything, banks aren't going to give you a loan. But if you work with a GC that's built plenty of multifamily or whatever asset class you're trying to build, if they built plenty of that, the banks are going to be very open to lending to them. What they'll look at you is: Can you support this asset? If it's only 50% occupied, they'll just look at your financials and can you can you not. It doesn't matter to them as much in regards to can the developer bring this to the finish line as much as can the GC bring this to the finish line. So we do both. So they look at us from both aspects. We pull bonds when we have to. But if you're just starting out, I would just work with the local GC that's building what you want to build. So I don't know that I would jump into a 500 unit on your first one. So find the GC that's building like 15 to 30-unit buildings and take them out to lunch. See about can we build some projects together.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And it's a partnership, right? Like the other day I mean. So how important is partnership in real estate?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Well, it's, your team, they say your network is your net worth. It's extremely important on the development side. I couldn't do what we do without our civil engineers, traffic engineers. You have to do traffic studies for approvals. The amount of different team members you have, you can't do it without them. So sometimes it makes sense. If you don't own the construction company, don't pay the GC 100% as his percentage, give up percentage equity in your deal. If he has some cash flow from your deal afterwards, he's going to be more incentivized to go into the next deal with you, build more and more multifamily because as you grow, he grows. I love it. Yeah, it might make a lot more sense to him than having a couple hundred thousand dollars more on one single project.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it, Simon. Love it. So just to recap, first thing you need is go find a land, get a civil engineer, partner up with the GC, get your lending in line, get your financials in line, right? And then how, and then you still need to work with an architect or a designer, right?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Yeah. So specifically look for multifamily architects. You want somebody who's designed multifamily, but now you built it. So you've gone through the, you've gone through finding land, civil engineer, architects, got your GC that built for you. And now what do you want to do with the asset now? A lot of developers will stabilize the asset and now just sell it. That delta is large enough to, I don't want to ever deal with tenant or toilet. I'm just going to occupy it and I'm not going to do the HUD thing. I'm just going to sell this thing and move on to the next. That was 100% Greg's play. He never kept a single one of his assets. As soon as he leased them up, sold them. And a lot of developers do very well with that. Or now do you find the management company, which is what we do. We own our own management company as well. But now you have to manage your asset. So with that being in-house, again, we control some of those costs. We have enough units in localized areas. So it makes sense to have your own management company. But there are plenty of management companies that for anywhere from 3 to 8%, will manage your asset, and you'll meet with them maybe four times a year. So if you want to be very hands-off, I hand it off to a good management company afterwards.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Amd you're only local in Maine, correct?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
So I live in New Hampshire and actually.

Dr. Noel Liu:
New Hampshire. Sorry.

Dr. Simon Beylin:
No. That's okay. Most of our stuff is in New Hampshire, but we do have three projects right now in Maine. So the 33 unit, we have another one contract for 222 units, and a 19 unit in Maine. The rest of them are New Hampshire.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Last question for you. If somebody wanted to partner up with you, what's your feedback?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
I met Peter through the mastermind with Greg. And I made this offer a million times. And Peter so far is the only one that's ever actually showed up. Peter was in Maine, and that's why we're building Maine. So all those projects he brought me in Maine. He's ten years, about ten years younger than me, and he saw a bunch of my posts online. He saw my interviews with Greg, and he said the same thing. Hey, I want to learn from somebody who's a few steps ahead. Can I come and get in on some of your deals? I want to part? So I said, Peter, you know what? You bring me a deal. Not only will I hold your hand through it, but I'll bring half the money to it and we'll do one of them together. It'll be 50-50. And if you like it, we move on after that. We met, I think it was like a Thursday or Friday. And the following week he found that 33 unit for me. So we partnered on it. It's a team effort. So there's always room. Yeah, there's always room in real estate for other people on the team. And I make that same deal with anybody. If you find me a good deal and you want to do it together, ... I'll bring you half cash to the table, too. So I put my money where my mouth is. Yeah, but yeah, that's, that is a great way to get into it. I always, it's difficult because we always want to be in control. We all have our own dental offices, right? We want to run our own practice. It's difficult to get people in our field, I think, to partner up because we still se, I think solo is a lot more popular than the group practice that. And people say, Oh, well, if Simon could do it, I could do 100% on my own. But they don't realize if you did the first one with somebody like a Greg or like a Simon or like a Peter, you get through the first one, learn from somebody who's done a few of them, or many of them, see what mistakes you would save money on by not doing it for someone on your own. And then if you wanted to, you'll do the next one on your own. And that's what I told Peter. But he's not doing the next ones on his own. We're still 50-50 on everything we're doing in Maine, because it makes more sense for both of us.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Makes more sense. Yeah, precisely.

Dr. Simon Beylin:
So why would you take the headache on your own? We're just growing together.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And so, and that's another thing too. Like somebody will say, Hey, I want to do it alone. Yeah, eventually he or she will get there. Eventually, they'll get there. But how much, at what, at whose expense and how long? How much money spent?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
So lesson that learning curve just piggyback and it helps with the bank. So the first one if you really think you're going to do the first development on your own, yeah, you're going to do it. It's going to take a while. You'll maneuver your way through the bank, you'll get your funding. But if, this is going to take you five years where you could have been six months on somebody else's development. And then now you have five, ten, $15 million under your belt on the size of what you built, now you go back to the bank and say, Look, I just finished this three months ago and it's fully occupied. Now, I want to go to the next one. It's much easier on that second one than it is on the first one.

Dr. Noel Liu:
100%. Well, Simon, thanks for the time, buddy.

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Of course. Any time.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So how can somebody find you?

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Visit our website BeylinDevelopment.com. My contact info is on there. And actually, the phone number that's on there is my cell phone. So if you ever have a question, shoot me a text. I always reply.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Great, we're definitely going to put the link down there as well in this pod. Other than that, I think we are pretty good and I appreciate you coming on.

Dr. Simon Beylin:
Of course. Anytime. I appreciate you having me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
All right. Great. Well everybody, we're going to land the plane here. Well, make sure to like and subscribe. We can definitely find SimonDevelopments.com. And that's his email address as well. So definitely reach out if you have any questions regarding ground-up construction. Alrighty. Have a good one, everybody.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Noel Liu:

Noel Liu, a graduate of NYU College of Dentistry, is a highly skilled and compassionate general dentist and co-founder of Secure Dental with multiple locations. With years of experience in the field, Dr. Liu has established a reputation as a trusted and knowledgeable dental professional.

 

In addition to his dental practices, Dr. Liu is also very passionate about mentoring and guiding his associate doctors in their transition from students to clinicians.  He has built a successful framework for model, mimic, and mastery flow to help them achieve their personal, professional, and financial goals and efficiencies.

Things You’ll Learn:

  • This podcast is for dental professionals looking to make the most out of their dental career, their wealth, and freedom.
  • Entrepreneurs usually learn how to grow their business the hard way. 
  • The Secure Dental Podcast is available everywhere you find your favorite podcast shows. 
  • Secure Dental will publish two episodes per month. 

Resources:

  • Connect with and follow Dr. Noel Liu on LinkedIn.
  • Check out Dr. Noel’s website.
  • Visit Secure Dental’s website and learn more about them!