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The NASA Toothpaste You’ve Never Heard Of (But Should Be Using)

The NASA Toothpaste You’ve Never Heard Of (But Should Be Using)

Summary:

What if your daily dental routine could support your health, the planet, and your mental well-being simultaneously?

In this episode of the Secure Dental Podcast, Belinda Lau, CEO and co-founder of ELIMS, discusses her journey in building a sustainable dental care brand, emphasizing clean ingredients, eco-friendly packaging, and the importance of mental wellness and support in entrepreneurship. Concerned by the waste in healthcare, she was inspired to create environmentally friendly and effective oral care products using clean ingredients and sustainable packaging. Their flagship products include a nano-hydroxyapatite toothpaste and dissolvable whitening strips designed for sensitive teeth, offering natural, food-grade alternatives to traditional formulas. By bootstrapping the business and leveraging strong partnerships within the dental community, they’ve grown organically without outside funding. Belinda emphasizes the value of real-world experience, support networks, and prioritizing mental wellness in entrepreneurship while aiming to shift healthcare toward safer, cleaner, and more sustainable solutions.

Tune in to discover how Belinda built a purpose-driven brand and how her story can inspire your journey to impact and wellness!

 

Secure Dental - Belinda Lau: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental - Belinda Lau: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental Podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
All right, everyone! Welcome to another episode of our Secure Dental podcast, where we bring in many different individuals from both inside and outside our dental industry. And this podcast for today has been sponsored by DentVia. DentVia is a dental administration company that helps our front desk staff and our managers to assist them with the back-end tasks. So, definitely visit them at www.DentVia.com. Once again, it's www. D E N T V I A .com. So, today we have a special guest, Belinda Lau. She is CEO and co-founder of ELIMS, meaning spelled the word smile spelled backwards. I just learned that right now. So, that is so amazing. It's a science-driven, sustainable oral care company on a mission to reimagine oral care with effective yet clean ingredients and planet-friendly design. This is something which we find very difficult to find these days. And what you're doing here, Belinda, is amazing. She is a former biomedical and materials science engineer and holds dual degrees from Carnegie Mellon University, and has over 20 years of experience with life-saving medical devices, back in her old life with insulin pumps and spinal implants. And today, she is the CEO of LMS. Now let's dive right in, Belinda. Let's talk about it.

Belinda Lau:
Let's do it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
What was your life like before ELIMS?

Belinda Lau:
Well, I guess going way back. My parents came from Southeast Asia. They were born and raised in Burma, and they actually moved to Canada. I was born and didn't have anything. My father tells me the story about how he had 14 US, he had 20 USD in his pocket, and when he went to the Thailand airport, he bought a drink, and that cost $6. And so, he actually came to the US with just 14 USD and really built a life, really with nothing, just with his grit and his own hands, and with me and my siblings. We actually grew up in my mom's shop. She had a little gift shop in downtown Vancouver, and that was really our first taste of what I know now to be business acumen. So, when we were very little, we every weekend, every summer break, every Christmas break, people going to summer camp or going to their grandma's house. Me and my brother and my sister were in the shop working every single day. And as a kid, you don't really like it. But as I'm older now, business is very natural to me. Back then, when I was a little girl drawing little signs to say, Sale $9.99. That's marketing. When I had to help clean out the back office, that's inventory management. When we had to count and do the bookkeeping every day, that's finance. So, looking back, those experiences were very valuable to me growing up. And it really gave me the sense that you can really do anything in your life if you really put your mind to it, and you work hard, and you just put your head down and do the good work. So, I grew up in my parents' shop. My father did very well later on his life, growing a luggage business, and so I traveled the world with him to get understand more about marketing and really running a very large organization. It was about 400 people that he managed at the very, towards the end of his career. For me, when I look to go to college, my father said, look, get something where you can get a job right away after you graduate. My father was very practical and very efficient. I really wanted to go into business, and he said, business is in your blood. You don't need to go to school for that. Go and get a skill set. And so, when I looked at what I was good at, I was really always good at science and math. And I thought, okay, engineering is a nice way to go. And my father really as an immigrant parent, he said, basically, you can be anything you want to be as long as it's a dentist, a doctor, a lawyer or an engineer, so I said, okay, well, these four options, I think the engineering route is the best for me. And I really love the biological sciences, and I really love math. And so, I went to Carnegie Mellon, got this dual degree in both biomedical engineering and materials science engineering. And later on in my career, I was really able to combine those two backgrounds working at Medtronic, building medical devices, because you really have to understand the science and the materials behind all the products, even in the dental world. Like, I look at all these composites and like the different coatings you can put on implants. Like I learned about those things, like hydroxyapatite and all of those things that we coated in engineering school, and fast forward many years later, I'm still around those same technologies. When I graduated college, I went to work for Medtronic for 15 years in various roles, all in product development. So, some in engineering, some in program management, some in marketing. I was really able to experience different parts of how a business is run, and that is really the beauty of that organization, is if you have a passion and you're smart, you're hardworking, you can really learn different skill sets. And so, I spent the majority of my career there. And then, actually, eventually, I wound up going to business school because I promised my dad I would get a master's degree. The child of immigrants. The whole goal is to level up your kids, and no one in my family at the time had a master's degree, so I wound up going back to UCLA, Anderson, here in Los Angeles, and getting my MBA back in 2020. And really, that experience gave me the confidence and sort of the passion to explore something outside of a very set role in like, corporate America. And I really, I always wanted to do something on my own. I always dabbled, I had like little internet businesses all through my life. And my husband is a dentist, and we looked at each other one day and were like, why don't we do something in this field? Like, why don't we build something? So my husband is a, he's been a dentist for now like over 20 years. And we just felt both my background and his background. There's got to be something, right? There's gotta be something here between the two of us, between medical devices and dentistry. And when I worked at Medtronic, I always felt very I was very always concerned about how much waste and trash was built up by the healthcare industry. I used to go to a lot of hospital visits, and you just see these sterile packaging, Tyvek packaging, all of these autoclave bags and things like that really build up, including all the gloves and the bibs and everything. And I just, I always just thought, why can't this stuff be more biodegradable? Or how can we close the loop on this waste problem because of the sterile requirement? You really need to make sure that the products work, the packaging works, and all of that stuff. Even in diabetes care, I worked in the diabetes industry for 12 years. And the syringes and the insulin sensors, the glucose sensors, the packaging, it all comes in as one-time use. Pop in the sensor, you throw away all the packaging. And it was just always stuck in my mind. And so, I just started thinking like, how can I solve this problem, but like in a smaller chunk, like how can I solve it in a smaller way? And so when I looked, the dental industry was always so interesting to me. I feel compared to medical device I used to work in, like class three, the highest risk products at with the FDA, and I just found the dental industry to be a little bit more of the Wild West. There was a bit more because the industry is so established. There's a, the FDA kind of turns a little bit of like a calm eye to the oral care side of things. So, I thought, okay, maybe I could do something here. So, just when I was in business school, I just really started looking into how big is the market, what are the needs I started to see in the beauty and the personal care space, this trend towards more sustainable packaging, more responsible ingredients, cleaner ingredients. And I really wanted to learn about how to make healthcare products more sustainable. And I just thought, okay, I think I can do this in oral care. If I can do it in oral care, then I can learn and apply these learnings and apply it to all of healthcare. And so, that's really where we started to think from. And we started doing our research. We wound up getting into a clean tech accelerator called the Clean Tech Open. It's the largest business accelerator for sustainable technologies. And people are building like windmills and electric vehicles. And here I am, I'm like, let's talk about toothbrushes and toothpaste tubes. So, it was we were a little different because everybody in the planet needs to brush their teeth. It's a very relatable topic, as I'm sure you're the life of the party every time you show up because people are asking you a question about their teeth. And I think.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Isn't it true? I bet your husband feels the same way, right?

Belinda Lau:
Oh, he's my best party trick. I don't even need to talk because he shows up and people are asking him about dental implants and crowns, and all the whole gamut of oral care questions. That's where we started to really think about. We bought. We bona fide our business through this business accelerator. We won a few like of these business pitch competitions.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, nice.

Belinda Lau:
Yeah, we had a little bit of seed funding, and then we actually launched during the pandemic. So, we launched in 2021 and we came out with a line of products that are have sustainable packaging, reduced packaging, more clean ingredients. So, our hero products are nano-hydroxyapatite toothpaste with ten nano-hydroxyapatite, and then we have a teeth whitening product that dissolves. So, it's like a Crest White strip, but we removed all of the strip parts. So, like the film, the plastic film, the plastic packaging, all of that went away when we developed a dissolving strip. So, you just apply it to your teeth, it dissolves in seconds. It's with hydrogen peroxide, so it still works and great for sensitive teeth. We started with these base products, and to this day we actually we haven't raised any money by design. My husband and I were like, can we do this on our own? Can we build the business to fuel itself? And so far, four years later, we're still here, still going strong. Unclear about these tariffs and things like that coming in. But so far, at least in the personal care industry, when you compare us to some of the deodorants and other personal care products, we're still here. And so, I'm very proud of that. And I'm proud about the awards we've won and the accolades we've gotten on a very shoestring budget. So, really, that's a kudos to the dental industry and our partnerships with dental offices, dentists, and hygienists who try our product, who've seen what we've done, who've looked at our data and said, this is a good product. And that's how we've organically grown, is really through partnerships with the dental community.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And that's the way, and I loved what you just said about like collaborating with different people, different, what do you call it, industries as well. Because at the end of the day, when we are starting up a business or we are actually running it, we need collaboration. And I really, something really resonated. You just said about your dad said, business is in our blood, I love it. I'm stealing that.

Belinda Lau:
It's in our bones.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right, go get a skill set. Business is in our blood. This is such a powerful statement, and I think it resonates with a lot of immigrants that come here right where their parents are from another country. So, I think that's really strong. So, tell me, when you started this business and how long ago, how long was the transition for you from your previous place, then you were working at Medtronic, and then you started this here, were you like, did you start them like while you were working, or did you like quit that place?

Belinda Lau:
Yeah, even worse, I was in business school full time. I was raising three kids under the age. I was working full-time at Medtronic, and I was starting the business. It was a very busy time of my life, and thank God, my mother is healthy and she was able to come and help us during that challenging time. When doctor, I think you will understand when you are so passionate and so driven about a new project, a new idea.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right, right.

Belinda Lau:
Like you cannot stop. Like, I could not stop. I was, like, so engulfed in the excitement of what this product, this business could be, who I could be in this process. And so, even though I was very busy, it was all worth it because, number one, I was working at this fantastic company, Medtronic, that where I was able to learn. Actually, during that time, I pivoted my career into operations, so I could learn how the business on the back end operates. So, I went from engineering to marketing to operations, and then at the same time, I was in business school reinforcing some of these learnings, and then I was applying it to the business, so I really, I don't know if I could have done it any other way. I really gained a lot of confidence about my own abilities because it was I was able to learn and apply it at the basically at the same time, even though it was a difficult time, it was very challenging. Even running the business now is very challenging, a lot of headwinds.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Absolutely.

Belinda Lau:
Rising costs like competition, a lot of different things. The grit that I learned now, when things go wrong or there's a mistake or something, I'm not as blown up about it as I was at the beginning of the business. Because you learn, you say you think to yourself, when have I seen this before? You know, when have I experienced this before? And I talk to a lot of budding entrepreneurs, people who have an idea who want to start a business. And if that person that I'm talking to has never worked at another company, I always encourage them. These are students, usually in college or in their master's program. I always tell them, go work for someone else for a little while. Just 2 or 3 years. Learn how they do business. Learn what they're doing right. Learn what they're doing wrong, and that way you can apply it to your business. It's basically business school in a nutshell. And then you can also get a salary fund your business. You don't have to go fundraise. If you are able to take a little bit of your salary and put it into the business, I really think it's so valuable to work for someone else to see how it's done and apply it to your own business. So, even when different things happen in at least in my current business, I go back and I think, where did I see this before in my career? Is there a time where this happened? And I always, almost always have some kind of analogous story that I can apply and the learnings that I can apply to the business? And I think that's the beauty of being an older entrepreneur. I don't want to age myself. I grew up without internet. So, let's just say that. And because of because of that, I feel like I can, I tackle problems from a place of experience, rather a place of like constant turmoil, if you will.

Dr. Noel Liu:
What you just said, I think, what I feel like you do have some sort of personal development that you went through during this whole time, and I can tell from your experience, from what you went through and what you're telling me, exactly what you discovered on the other side. I want you to share a little bit of the secret sauce about that grit and the work-life balance, because people need to understand when you're running a business or you're starting up, there's a lot at stake. You're putting your entire family on the line, right? So I want you to talk a little bit about that because people go, oh, yeah, he's a guy. He can do it. But you as a female is 1,000% my respect to you. How did you do it? With family, with job, and husband, and parents, right? How did you do it?

Belinda Lau:
Taking care of elder parents, taking. Raising kids, making sure they're growing up, right?

Dr. Noel Liu:
What was a superpower?

Belinda Lau:
A superpower? I think it's really just there's really no secret sauce, I think, for myself. I've always been a very hard-working person. I don't really need like, fame. I don't need glory. I really just, I really want my kids to do well. I want them to grow up to be responsible humans. I want to maintain a happy marriage with my husband, who's also my business partner. That's very, I want to take care of myself. Like I want to run marathons, I want to be able to work out and feel healthy in my body, and be nourished. It is a lot of planning, and it's a very busy life, I would say, like taking care of myself. And if you're an entrepreneur out there, taking care of yourself is so important. I remember the first year of the business, this was during the pandemic, and we launched in July of 2021. And you turn on the website, you make your press release, and then you expect like millions of dollars to come into your business. You're like, how come? No, how come I'm not a millionaire overnight, right? And so we tried a bunch of different things, and my, even my husband said, how does anyone know this business exists? How does anyone know, right? Like, people are so busy and consumed with their lives. How are you? How do people get awareness that we're here? And so I remember the first six months was so difficult. I remember being very stressed, a lot of anxiety, very little sleep. We had some product issues, not product issues. We had issues importing the product, some of the products' components from the UK we had, we weren't getting the traction that we projected, and there was just so many things. And I remember almost having a breakdown, and this is such an important thing because what I did is I reached out to other entrepreneurs, my friends, people who were business owners, and that's so important. If you're an entrepreneur, you need to have a network of people who are running businesses because even though the business is different, the size of the business is different. The products you sell is different. The experience, the anxiety, the sleepless nights, the stress that is all the same for all of us, running a dental practice. Very stressful, managing staff. These are all things us, as business owners, have to experience, and so I really encourage people to find other business owners, friends who are going through that, and call them in your time of need. You don't need to tell them that you're stressed. You don't need to tell them that you're lonely and making these decisions. You just need to call. Because that's what I did. I called two of my friends, and one of them was like, stop talking about your business. I can't even talk to you right now because I can see that your mind is not in the right place. You have not slept. You are malnourished. You have an exercise. All you've been doing is this business. You need to stop. Give yourself three weeks off. Three weeks off. I said, how can I stop for three weeks? I don't care how you do it. Just turn it all off for three weeks. Take these vitamins. Take your vitamins. Get more than seven hours of sleep. Good sleep per night. Do some yoga classes, like she gave me a prescription of basically how to just unplug. And honestly, I thought she was crazy, and I said there's no way I could do this. But she gave me some tools. She helped me find some, like people to help me out in some certain parts. And then I literally took it wasn't a full three weeks, but I did take two weeks to unplug. And that was magical because I literally was able to think again. I was able to be creative again. And I remember one, I had a lot of advisors and mentors at the very beginning of the business, and I were talking to one of my advisors, and he gave me some advice, and I felt I was able to absorb that better, and I was able to make better decisions. So, really, is there a secret sauce? Being busy doesn't mean that you're being successful. Really understanding what are the important things that really matter and what are what needs to be done, and then having that self-awareness to be like, hey, I'm not okay. I am not sleeping.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right, right.

Belinda Lau:
I'm not making good decisions. I am not serving the business. I am not serving my shareholders because I am not showing up at 100%. So, that's really it. You can have the family and the business and run the marathons and all of these things, but you really need to know when to train for the marathon, when to lean into. You can never turn the kids off, but there are certain times where I know now, four years in, that my business during the summertime is not very busy. So, that's I can prepare for that. I can say, okay, during the summer I can chill. And I know that the business is very busy at the end of the year. So, there are certain times of the year where I know the business is going to need me more. So, it's it ebbs and flows in terms of stress. So, I really encourage people who are running their own business to understand those business cycles and take the time to reset and recharge, when the business is not as busy. So, those are the, that's how I view life and how I review, look at my superpowers. Really just prioritizing and understanding what's important and what's not.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it, I love it. You are like a true testament of somebody when. So, I read a lot of books, right? And I'm sure you heard of Jim Rohn and Bob Proctor and all these guys from the personal development world. One of those things that really caught my attention, and this was like recently, like a few years back, they were like, you just let go, you let go, and you let universe happen and things automatically fall in place. The more you chase, the more you try to be busy, the more it runs away from you. And when I hear you, I heard your story. I'm like, wow, this is exactly what you did. You unplugged yourself, and everything just started falling in place. It reminds me of that saying when they say in an airplane, when the oxygen masks come down, everybody says, right, put on your office first before you put on your passenger, your next door passenger. And I think that's exactly how it is in business. You got to take care of yourself first before you can take care of your team members and the business.

Belinda Lau:
Yeah, and find people to support you. People you trust, people who know you, maybe within the business context, but people who really care about you regardless of the outcome of your business. Sometimes, if you have investors, they're like, oh, take care of yourself so you can make me more money, but, you know, there's people who just really are invested in making sure they just want to see you successful. And those are the best people, because when you call them, it's maybe once or twice a year. But when you call them, you know that they're going to give you some solid advice, and you are going to be better for making that phone call.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You may or may not like it, right?

Belinda Lau:
Yes, exactly. It's so important to have that network, that support.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So let's talk about your business right now, the products you are making. You said ... in there about planet-friendly. It's very efficient, very economical in the sense that it's not like it's very planet-friendly, right? Let's talk about that a little bit. How did you come up with that concept, and what does it do exactly?

Belinda Lau:
Yeah, exactly. So, it's so interesting. We actually started just to look at the sustainability aspect of oral care. Like when you go in the dental office, you have to shrink wrap the entire room just to do like one one hygiene check, right? The gloves and the bibs and like all of that stuff. And so, we started from that aspect and we realized there's actually a lot of advancements in that kind of technology for materials, everything from biodegradable to like bio-based, which is sourced from like plants and things like that. So, I was very encouraged in 2019 to see a lot of this technology already existing, and then for us to find a way to apply it to the dental industry. So, I really like that. And then along the way, we interviewed, I want to say we interviewed 400 dental professionals and thousands of consumers through surveys and interviews. And people were just all saying, can we make, can we get the chemicals out of our oral care products? And everything is a chemical. And you, you and I are cyclical. So, we understand that the concept was in the beauty and the personal care industry. They were removing a lot of these sort of fragrances, artificial flavors, artificial scents, and things like that, dyes. When you sometimes you open a tube of kids' toothpaste, you see these little sparkles. Oh, that's a microplastic right there. And you want my kid to put that in their mouth.

Dr. Noel Liu:
What's that, right?

Belinda Lau:
We just started looking at some of this red toothpaste. Blue toothpaste. Is that really necessary? And we realized that you can't pronounce half of those things. Even I, as an engineer with a material science background, I didn't know what half of those things 90% of those things were. So, I said, can we create products with ingredients that you could actually pronounce? Which means that the consumer, and for, even for myself and for my children, I understand what's going into our bodies. And so, we started dissecting toothpaste teeth whitening products and then really just saying, what are the essentials? What does this thing need to do? And of course, Casey, my husband, from a dental perspective, he's, I want the tricalcium phosphate, I want hydroxyapatite, I want xylitol. These are all ingredients that have a lot of scientific background that we could apply. And specifically nano-hydroxyapatite, I love this product because it is the ultimate fluoride alternative. And I'm still a fan of fluoride. It's still the gold standard. If you ask the ADA, they'll tell you fluoride is the gold standard. There's a lot of data behind it, and I do believe topical fluoride is extremely effective, and I don't shy away from it. But what I love about nano hydroxyapatite at a 10% concentration, it has been proven to have the same level of remineralization as stannous fluoride.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Nice.

Belinda Lau:
And so when you look at that, what is this? What is hydroxyapatite? And as a material engineer and a biomedical engineer. I'll tell you, I geek out about this because hydroxyapatite is just what your bones and your teeth are naturally made of, right? So when you crush it up into a nano form and then you apply it on a paste to your teeth, it just replastered the surface of your enamel. And I didn't invent it. I'm not going to take credit for that. It was actually invented by NASA in the 1970s, because when these astronauts go into space for 3 or 4 months or more missions, the gravity makes them have bone loss, especially in their teeth. So, they're coming back with weakened teeth and weakened bones. And also, if you get a cavity in space, you still can't see a dentist in space. It may be coming in the next couple of years, maybe. Dr. Liu, you'll be the first. And you go to space and be the first space dentist, but you know, you can't see a dentist in space. And so, you know these astronauts.

Dr. Noel Liu:
It's crazy, nobody even thinks about those things.

Belinda Lau:
Nobody thinks about it. You get a cavity, you get a toothache in space, that's a bad trip. You're out there for years, potentially, so NASA invents a hydroxyapatite in a toothpaste form to help remineralize the teeth in the surface of the teeth. And some people on your podcast might be saying like, oh, well, how come I haven't heard about this ingredient in the US? And that's because a Japanese company in the 1980s bought the patent. And so, in Japan and Korea, it's been used for the last 40 years. It's wonderful. You go to Japan, and at least half of their toothpastes have hydroxyapatite in it. It's so wonderful. And so, that's why there's such a wealth of data behind it, because it's really been studied for a very long time. And so, we're one of the few companies in the US that actually have the 10% concentration, which is equivalent to the fluoride remineralization. And the benefit of the remineralization is actually it helps with sensitivity, super good for sensitivity, because it's really like a coat of armor for your teeth. And so, for some people, like myself, I've used a very specific brand of toothpaste that claims it was for sensitivity, and I used it for ten years. I'm not kidding. And I still had sensitivity, right? And when I switched over to nano-hydroxyapatite toothpaste, I found that my sensitivity went away in two weeks. So, I thought, okay, this is amazing. And when I found out it was completely biocompatible, my husband tells his patients, with our toothpaste, it's all natural, all food-grade ingredients, yet effective. It's so natural you could spread it on toast in the morning and then eat it for breakfast. Literally, you can ingest it and it's absolutely no issues. All our ingredients are food grade. It's actually technically pharmaceutical grade, which is a higher grade compared to food grade. But we always say food grade because that's something that people can.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Something people can understand and relate.

Belinda Lau:
Yeah, so that's really important because kids, especially as they swallow their toothpaste. And then you and I, whenever we brush our teeth, that toothpaste is going into our bloodstream through the gum line. So, that's very important to me to make sure that we have something that number one, is it effective? Does it actually work? So, check what, number two, is it safe? Is it safe? Is it good for us? And then number three, can we make this sustainable? So, all our products have to hit on these three pillars. And then we put some cute packaging and branding around it. You talked about our brand name is the word smile backwards. Those cute little hidden brand things is very personal to us. We try to do these things to really encourage people to enjoy the brushing experience, to want to brush their teeth, want to floss their teeth, and take care of their teeth. And then once they feel good about their health and all of that stuff, they really feel good about their place in the world. That's really our mission, is to make people healthier and reduce the waste. And when you do all that stuff, we feel like we'll have better outcomes as a society. And that's my macro dream for this little toothpaste company to help position everyone to feel better about themselves.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it, just the fact that you said it takes away sensitivity. I think that's just not only you, but with many other people.

Belinda Lau:
Yes.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So I think this is a huge plus.

Belinda Lau:
Yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So now, is it, like...

Belinda Lau:
The focus of the products, initially.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Like a side effect, right?

Belinda Lau:
Yeah, it actually came out after. Well, we, obviously, we test all our products, but we, it's very hard to test for sensitivity. But our customers kept coming in and were like saying, man, my sensitivity is gone just in a few weeks. And we started looking into it. Yeah, we're like, it really does work. And so, the same thing with our teeth whitening strips, they're actually made for sensitive teeth. So, we actually won, ... Magazine named our teeth whitening strips the best teeth whitening strips for sensitive teeth because when you apply it it's got all these great ingredients and things like that, but you feel no sensitivity on your teeth even though we're using a 7% hydrogen peroxide, which is a pretty high concentrate for it at home. Not a professional, but at home, right, whitening products. So, that's where we really come and see. Hey, can we take what the industry standard is and then make it a little bit better, reduce the waste, clean up the ingredients a little bit, but give a better experience to the consumer so they feel good about what they're using?

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's awesome because when we talk about whitening, equal sensitivity.

Belinda Lau:
Yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And you are saying your product is whitening, is for sensitivity.

Belinda Lau:
Yeah, yeah. And we always encourage people to use the hydroxyapatite toothpaste along with it to remineralize the teeth that hydroxyapatite is deposited white, white calcium to your teeth. So, your teeth actually appear to be whiter and smoother. It's really weird. Your teeth, the surface, your teeth feel more smooth. It's just like a funny byproduct, but it works. And so, then there's no way bacteria can stick if it's like sliding off your teeth.

Dr. Noel Liu:
After this podcast, I'm the first customer to go back and get one.

Belinda Lau:
Take a look, take a look. Yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, for sure, I love it. I'm sure. So, is it safe to say that those hydroxy those nano-hydroxyapatite crystals are a safe replacement for fluoride?

Belinda Lau:
Yeah, it's, I'm not saying that, but.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I mean, in terms of what it does, right?

Belinda Lau:
You have to use it at least a 10% concentration. Some toothpaste brands don't actually say their concentrations. So, you know, they've got the marketing amount. They sprinkle some in there, so just be aware. But for the most part, it's a wonderful product. And so, now we're exploring what happens if you use fluoride and hydroxyapatite. What happens then? So that's for another podcast. We're starting to see what happens. You get even more benefits by combining the two.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Excellent, excellent. Belinda here. Appreciate you coming in. Is there anything else you would like the audience to know about you or your product?

Belinda Lau:
I would just say the oral care industry is evolving right before our eyes. Five years ago, six years ago, when we started the business, there wasn't a lot of these technologies that were in the market. And so, I think with oral care, your toothbrush or your toothbrush brand, your toothpaste brand, people get very loyal to one brand, one type of product, and they just don't think they go into Target or CVS. They just grab that same thing they've been using for years. And I just would encourage people to start looking at their ingredients, their packaging, and really understanding, because we have the power as consumers with our dollars. So, really look at what is in your bathroom counter, what are your kids are using? And really think about how that impacts your health, and also how that may be impacting the planet. That's what I would encourage people to do. And if you want to explore our products, we're here. You can find us at ELIMS.co, which is smile backwards, and just Google us and you'll find us right there.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Yep. So, it's E L I M S.co. Is that right?

Belinda Lau:
Yes, exactly right.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Perfect, perfect. Thanks a lot, Belinda. This was an amazing story, and I think you have an amazing journey. You came from, where you came from, and where you're heading, and I can already see four years into it. You're in there for the long haul.

Belinda Lau:
Thank you, Dr. Liu. I appreciate you saying that, especially given your background. I really do appreciate that. And I really have enjoyed our talk today. So, thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, absolutely. I enjoyed it myself. All right. We're going to land the plane here. Thanks a lot again. Everyone listening. Make sure to like and subscribe, and we will check you guys out on our next episode.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Belinda Lau:

Belinda Lauist is the CEO and co-founder of ELIMS, a science-driven, sustainable oral care company on a mission to reimagine oral care with effective yet cleaning ingredients and planet-friendly design.

A former biomedical and materials science engineer, Belinda holds dual engineering degrees from Carnegie Mellon University and has over 20 years of experience developing life-saving medical devices like insulin pumps and spinal implants. She later earned her Executive MBA from UCLA Anderson, where the idea for ELIMS was born. Today, she leads ELIMS with a commitment to transparency, innovation, and sustainability—bringing her deep technical expertise to every product the brand creates.

Things You’ll Learn:

  • Purpose-driven entrepreneurship creates authentic impact when rooted in personal values and lived experience.
  • Vulnerable storytelling builds powerful human connections and inspires others.
  • Adversity fuels growth, transformation, and mission-led leadership.
  • Embracing cultural identity strengthens leadership and community impact.
  • Holistic wellness requires honoring the mind, body, and spirit for lasting change.

Resources:

Categories
Blogs Podcast

How Dr. Liu’s Implant Fellowship at NYU is Shaping Future Dental Leaders | Kumar’s Journey

Summary:

Dr. Parthkumar Patel shares his inspiring journey from India to becoming a dental professional in the U.S.—and how the Liu Advanced Clinical Fellowship in Implant Dentistry at NYU College of Dentistry is helping him grow both clinically and professionally.

 

In this video, Dr. Patel reflects on:

✅ Discovering dentistry through early mentorship

✅ Hearing about Dr. Liu’s renowned surgical expertise

✅ Receiving financial support and scholarships through Dr. Liu’s efforts

✅ The hands-on intensity and value of the NYU Implant Fellowship

✅ Gaining business and clinical skills far beyond implants

 

The Liu Fellowship is a full-time, advanced clinical training program focused on implant dentistry. Dr. Liu not only teaches advanced surgical skills but also mentors students in building successful dental careers, including private practice management.

 

If you’re a dental professional considering specialization or looking for real-world mentorship, this program offers a rare blend of clinical excellence, personal growth, and financial support.

 

🔗 Learn more about the Liu Advanced Clinical Fellowship in Implant Dentistry at NYU here.

Categories
Blogs Podcast

Dr. Liu Inspires: Spotlight on the Liu Advanced Clinical Fellowship in Implant Dentistry

Summary:

Through the Liu Fellowship, NYU is bridging the gap between advanced clinical practice and global dental education — and Dr. Liu is at the heart of it. His guidance and expertise are shaping the future of implant dentistry worldwide.

Join us for an inspiring highlight from NYU College of Dentistry featuring Dr. Liu and his impactful work empowering future dental leaders. Watch as Dr. Liu engages with NYU students, sharing his expertise and passion for implant dentistry through the groundbreaking Liu Advanced Clinical Fellowship in Implant Dentistry.

Discover the full details of the Liu Advanced Clinical Fellowship in Implant Dentistry program at NYU, including its curriculum and selection process, here.

 

Categories
Podcast

Don’t Wait to Sell—Build to Sell from Day One

Don’t Wait to Sell—Build to Sell from Day One

Summary:

Dental practice owners should begin preparing their business for an eventual sale from day one, focusing on making it self-sufficient long before they intend to exit. 

In this episode, Dr. Ruth Mannschreck, dentist, business strategist, and founder of Shoreline Strategies LLC, discusses her journey from practitioner to consultant, driven by her own costly mistakes in selling her practice. She emphasizes transforming a practice into a business that runs itself—her “Business Lifestyle by Design” program—which not only enhances saleability but also significantly improves the owner’s work-life balance. Ruth details her “Prep It to Sell” framework, including four pillars for a successful sale: increasing practice value beyond just financials, decreasing buyer risk by diversifying dependencies, clearly defining your unique competitive advantage, and making the practice a turnkey operation. She also warns against common errors like waiting too long to prepare, narrowly focusing on associate buyers which can depress value, and misunderstanding diverse buyer motivations. Finally, Ruth shares the importance of involving the team transparently and early in the sale process, fostering respect and security. 

Tune in and learn actionable strategies to maximize your dental practice’s value and ensure a smooth, profitable, and fulfilling transition!

 

Secure Dental-Ruth Mannschreck: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental-Ruth Mannschreck: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for this Secure Dental podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hello. Welcome back again to another episode of our Secure Dental Podcast, where we bring in many different talents from both inside and outside our dental industry. Today's pod is sponsored by DentVia, a virtual dental administration company that allows our front desk and managers to do their daily tasks by taking care of the back-end office work. So definitely visit them at www.DentVia.com. It's www.DentVia.com. So with that being said and put aside, let's dive right in. So we have a very, very special guest here today, Dr. Ruth. She is a dentist, a business strategist, and the owner and founder of Shoreline Strategies LLC. With over 30 years of dental experience both as a practitioner and a business owner, she understands what it takes to run a practice and also on the sell side of a practice. She has transformed her own business and now helps many others through her own experience. And she has two fantastic programs: The Business Lifestyle by Design and Prep It to Sell, live virtual training programs. So welcome, Dr. Ruth. Glad to have you here.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Oh, it's great to be here. I can't wait to speak with your audience.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it, love it. So let's start a brief intro on how you got started with dentistry and what was the journey like?

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
I actually was aimed at physical therapy in the beginning, and then watched a dentist and thought, boy, I can do what he's doing. And I love using my hands, so that was a no-brainer. I started my practice from scratch, which was the first of many really questionable business decisions that I made. Most of the things that I teach and guide people through are huge mistakes that I've made as a business owner, and that was probably my first one, but it worked out fine. I was in private practice. We had two little boys. My daughter was born. She had a very traumatic birth. She was in the hospital for weeks. When she got out, she had to see eight different doctors every week. So we had to take my practice of five days a week and scrunch it down to two-and-a-half days. And we did it. My team and I figured out a whole system. That's the Business Lifestyle by Design, is how to get your life back because practice can be all consuming. So that's one chunk that we work on. So fast forward a few years, and two colleagues of mine approached me and said, Gee, we'd love to buy your practice. And I thought, I love these guys. I know these guys. I went to school with them. This should be a no-brainer. I didn't stop and do, I didn't ask myself a lot of questions. I didn't consider many, many things. And I left a ton of money on the table. Not because these colleagues of mine had malicious intent; it was just I didn't know. And boy, life gets you when you don't know; when you don't stop to consider. So I'm on a mission to educate a lot of professionals in private practice to take a look, ask themselves a lot of questions before they get into a transaction that can change your life. Think about it. It's probably, the biggest asset you're ever going to sell is your practice. And if you don't do, it's kind of like mental due diligence to think about: what are my non-negotiables? There's a whole lot of questions I wish I had asked, and that's how I got into my program about Prepping Your Business to Sell before you get to that point in your life.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No. That's awesome. I'm definitely going to dive in a little bit on your experience with the sell side. But before we do that, right, let's go back in time a little bit. As practice owners, people who are running their own businesses, what are some of the things where they are not deciding to sell yet? However, what would you say, like some few steps they should do to start prepping for that exit? Because eventually it's going to happen, even though we don't think it's going to happen. But is there any step that someone should start looking into and taking right away, like from day one?

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Absolutely. I think the biggest mistake I see docs making is they wait too long to start. So the things you can do early, if you can turn your practice into a business that runs itself, you have a much greater chance of selling it to various buyers. There are all types of buyers.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Business runs itself. I love that. Let's elaborate a little bit on that. I love that.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Because think about it, so many docs that I know they run themselves ragged, not just producing great patient care, but running a practice. Running the practice takes up way too much of our mental and physical time. And if you can, not only is it better to sell something, that's, I call it self-propelled, something that runs itself; that is much easier to sell, but it's also better for the doc. You get your life back. When, think about it, all you have to do is show up and do, whatever you need a handpiece, those are the rules in my practice. If I didn't need a handpiece and you didn't need my dental license to do it, I wasn't allowed to touch it. That's how we got down to two-and-a-half days. And we never went back. We never went back to five because we went right back up to the revenue we had before and exceeded it. So we have it in our heads that we have to be responsible and busy and productive all these hours, and it's just not the kind of success definition that I had for myself. So when we found out that we could scrunch it down, we just did. And we stayed at that. That became my new definition of success for me. Everybody should be able to have their own definition; you have to to have a little freedom in there. So I say, in getting your business ready to sell, your practice, let's turn it into something that runs on its own. And there are several components you need. You need great systems. You need the right people. You need great communication. There's a lot of things you can do to set that up. And the other thing I really encourage people, if you're going to set up your practice to run without you, it gives you freedom, so that, here's one of the mistakes I made. I waited to tell my team that I had sold the practice until the deal was done, because that's what a broker said to do. Like the next team meeting, you sit down and say, Okay, guys, here we go. I'm out of here, and this new guy is running the show. And that's a horrible way to do it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
But isn't that the norm?

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
It is. And it's so, just consider this, just to think about. What if you told your team ten years before you're going to sell that, I, team, I am setting up this practice to run without me? I'm setting it up to care for you, to provide security, jobs, all of that. I'm setting it up so that if I get hit by a truck, you guys can keep on marching. Somebody else may sit in my chair. But our culture, the way we treat our patients, the way we treat each other as a team, all stays the same.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Wouldn't that be a much less frightful way for our team? Because think about it. I felt responsible for the livelihoods of so many families because the main breadwinner worked in my practice, and it just didn't seem respectful, like I was treating them as a real person that mattered to me. Of course, I did it all wrong. So don't, I'm not preaching that I want you to do what I did because I really messed it up. But since then, I've spoken with so many other industries, and that's more common in other industries, to just have that conversation way ahead of time, and take the fear and the insecurity out of it. Now, when you have that in your back pocket, it's a whole different conversation with the new owner. Or the new, you know, your buyer, you can have a completely different conversation when you're not dependent on who is that person to decide if they're going to keep it or not.

Dr. Noel Liu:
This is so huge. One of the things that I see, like it's such a normal practice when you go and acquire a practice. It's like, Oh, come after hours. Come at a time when we are not open, or come at a time when we are closed, when nobody's there. Right? And you are talking, you're on the other side of the equation. You are like, No, no, no.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Yep. And that's exactly how, because I bought a practice. I bought another practice to add to my own. And that's how we did it. It was come see the office at night. But what if, I said to my team way ahead of time, We're going to have people walk through the office. They're looking at it. They're looking at our systems. They want to learn how we do things. And I have the new team come through, take a look, ask questions, engage. And then after they're gone, you have two exit interviews, one with the potential buyer and say, What did you think? And one with your team, and say, What did you think of these people?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Sure. It's giving your team a little input into the transaction, but I think it's giving them respect. And they have opinions, they have perspective, which we just don't get as a doc. Our team has a much different perspective on how the business runs, how our patients engage with everybody from the front desk to the lab in the back. We are smart to listen to that perspective because it's available if we go after it a little.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You know, Ruth, you are so right, because these guys are the ones that are actually the grassroot efforts in a practice. They're the one who is on a day-to-day basis with their patients, not us. I mean, we are the owners. But the thing is, at the end of the day, it's those guys. And I love the fact that you want to get everybody involved. And that's coming from an abundance mindset versus somebody who's like scarcity, always thinking about, Oh, what if they leave? What if they quit last minute ... sell? Right? But I feel like if you get them involved, they feel like they're part of the family. They feel like they're part of the transaction. They feel like they're part of everything. And I think that respect goes a long way. And I love what you just said. So how is the current system? Even though the doc is not willing to sell right now, in the next five years or six years, I just want you to briefly touch base on, let's say, HR, operations, and let's say, financially, like their PNL statement and everything else. What should somebody do to start prepping like little bits and pieces at a time? Because I know that you said you want to prepare for exit, right? But what are some of those things that somebody can take away as a nugget right away?

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Much of this is about how to get your business ready to run itself. So that's, my two topics are. So the things you can do right now are the things to get your business to run without you. The goal, the thing I want to hear my clients come back and say to me is: It happened. My business runs better when I'm not there. That is music to my ears. But we don't get that. I don't know. I went to a lot of practice management stuff when I was a doc, and no one ever said, Try to get your team to be self-directed. Try to get them to do. Nobody taught me that, you know? And that, when I've looked at practices to buy, I never heard anybody say, My team handles everything. All you have to do is show up, sit down in a chair, and start working on people. Never, ever. There's always a laundry list of, You're the doc, you have to do this also, you know?

Dr. Noel Liu:
So in your bio, you said something about the four pillars of getting your business ready for a successful sale, right? What are those pillars?

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Sure. Those four? So the first one is to increase the value of your practice. You mentioned looking at your PNLs. I want doctors to understand their PNLs; not just look at them, but actually understand what's the difference between a PNL and your balance sheet, and why do you need both? And how can you make decisions based on those? So increase the value of that, but also increase the value of other parts of your business. It's not just the financial piece. You can grow professionally, your team, have your team be on the cutting edge. That is hugely increasing the value of your business. And I also say this is the time when you're increasing the value is to think about who's going to be your ideal buyer? Not all buyers are the same. You can have a beginner who wants to buy instead of build a practice. You could have what I call a marauder who just wants to come in, steal one thing. Like they'll take all your charts; I don't want real estate; I don't want equipment; I don't want your people; I just want your charts. So that's a whole different. Not that that's bad. It's just different. You have to think about what is it that you're actually selling? How can you divvy up your practice and your transaction team would help you do that? But the earlier you start to think about that, the more prepared you are to say, I've got this piece, and I've got this piece, and I want these two things to go together. You know, you can design it however you want if you're really clear about what you want when you're going in. So that's the first one. The second one is to decrease the risk. So there's always some risk in buying someone else's business. But there are many things you can do to decrease that in the eyes of a buyer. So if you're the doc and you're the rainmaker for the practice, like people come because the community knows you. It's wonderful for you. But for the next doc, it's going to be, they're not going to have your charisma, your relationship with the community. So you got to think about what's the doc's role in the community and how will you replace that with somebody else? The other thing to think about is: Do you have, I'll call them producers, I hate to use that word, but producers in your practice? Does the majority of your revenue stream, let's say hygiene, come from one producer? In the eyes of a buyer, if that producer walks out the door because she doesn't like me, I'm sunk. So you have to look at: Do your? When you get referrals in, when people get referred to you, if your referral partners, if you have 2 or 3 referral partners and the bulk of your new patients come from those people, boy, that's risky. Because if those existing referral partners don't appreciate the new doctor, there goes a big chunk. That's a risk for the buyer. So I like to distribute that. I like to even it out as much as you can, just so that it doesn't send off red flags for a buyer. So those are the first two. The third is, I believe every practice has what I call a competitive advantage. How are you different from the doc right next door? So in my community where I was, there were 70 dentists on my street. It's a very wealthy community. I know. So there's Dr. Ruth's second, really bad business decision was to set up in a town with too many dentists already. But if somebody's going to pick your practice over the one next door, why? Why would they pick yours? That's called a competitive advantage. Are you more qualified? You have to come up with something and put language around it and marketing around it to put that out there. Our buyers won't know that one dentist is hugely different than the next. You know, we know how we are different than the doc next door. But we have to put that into language that the buyer will understand and then articulate it all the time, so that they'll get it. When they meet our community, the community will reinforce what we've said, our competitive advantages. And then the last piece is: make it turnkey easy. So I'm back to making it a business that runs itself. That is hugely going to get somebody's attention. If you can say, Watch my team; watch them go, they do it all. I just show up and be a doctor.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's wonderful. You know, when somebody's shopping for a practice, they are actually looking around quite a bit. They have a whole listing going on. And I think this is exactly what you just nailed into the head is: How do you set yourself apart? And when you have these four pillars, I think that's huge for someone to start thinking in terms of what do I need to do now? And I love the fact that you said, Get yourself out and let itself propel itself. And I think that's the key in valuation, honestly. You know, like myself, when I look at practices, I'm looking at the risk factor. Right? Like you just mentioned. How do I have this doc produce after post sale? Is he going to be gone? Is he or she going to be hanging around for a little bit? Like, you know, those are the questions that kind of keeps luring. And the fact that if I know that this doc is going to make sure, like, all the risk factors are taken care of in some shape, form or another, I think that practice is going to be a lot more attractive.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Right. And if you bring that to the table, if you start that conversation and say, Here's my competitive advantage, here are my risk factors, and this is what we've done so that they no longer will be. I love stepping into that first so that you're not making excuses for it, after when they bring it up. I like to put it right out there on the table and say, This is what we've done, and my team is part of all of this. I want to make my team as winsome as magnetic to the buyer as possible, so that he's going to want to keep them. He's going to have to keep them. You know?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Exactly. They should be worthwhile, right? I love it. So I want to transition a little bit from the sell side. Now let's talk about the buyers. You listed some of the different kind of buyers. Let's try to go in a list there, and some of the advantages and disadvantages. And I know like the buyers are looking at different practices to acquire. However the seller is also looking at different buyers, right, at the same time.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
I don't know if they are or not. I didn't. The first ones. So I have the sense as a dentist that we're kind of cave dwellers. We are in our office, and unless you're in a group practice or you're part of a big box, you don't have these conversations. We spend a lot of time in our own little practice, far removed from. We just don't have those conversations as often as other industries do. And I think it just doesn't occur to us. It's like Goldilocks and the Three Bears, you know? Like figure out what you want in a buyer and tell your broker, or don't use a broker, whatever; tell your broker, This is what I want. These are my selling points. I want a doc who looks like this, this, this, and this. This is a good match for me. Go find them. See? But that's confidence. And that requires clarity. You have to understand your practice and what your practice looks like to a buyer. So I think once you understand, once you get yourself organized and know these parts, you can have a much more meaningful conversation with a broker or however you want to do it, or directly with a buyer. You can have a great conversation because you can stand there in confidence, because you're very clear about what they're going to want out of your practice. And it's way more than just numbers. I know everybody says, Oh, you just have to raise your revenue. Well, yes, that's a great part. And I would add to that: you want to raise your trending. So you want not just good numbers, but you want trends of numbers for years going back. So that, too, you got to start early. But there's so much more to buying and selling than just how much revenue are they making. So maybe they're called soft skills. It's something that not everyone talks about, but I think it's a huge thing, and it's made the world of difference in some practices before they get ready to sell.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You know, that is so true. What I like to know is some of the mistakes to avoid based off your experience because you've been through this, and you mentioned earlier that it wasn't the best experience, right? Some of the pitfalls; pitfalls or the don'ts.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
I would say. So, the biggest mistake that people make is waiting too long. You know?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Waiting too long.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Waiting too long to get started. So a business doesn't have to be a practice. Just think about a business in general. It has a natural arc to its growth. And on that arc, there's the perfect place to sell your business. And we, as docs, are asking our business on that arc to peak at the very minute we decide we don't want to do this anymore, and that hardly ever happens. We decide, I've had enough. We're doing great. I just want to stop. And it's not at the same time when your business is having another growth spurt and ready to go. We just wait too long. We look at our trends for how things are going earlier so we can coordinate when we want to be done and where that trend is going to go. But that requires forethought. You just have to start sooner. So the biggest mistake I see is people wait too long to start. Another mistake I see is that docs think they have to bring an associate into the practice, and then sell the practice to this associate, or some flavor of that arrangement, which is fine, but that makes the docs think smaller. If you knew your buyer was going to be a group practice, let's say, who had deeper pockets, you would want a different price from them than your poor associate, who's still trying to run like crazy and pay off loans. So it makes you think small. And I just remind people, This is, you're selling your baby, your biggest asset probably. And you want to not have that mindset of, Oh, he can only afford this, so I'm only going to charge, I only want this much. It's not a smart way to think about your business that you've worked so hard to grow and build to what it is when you're ready to sell it. You know?

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's such a good example.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Yeah. Another mistake I see is what we talked about: not understanding the buyer's thought process, like what the buyer is looking for because they're not all looking for the same thing. And it took me a while to learn about different, there's investors, there's what I call marauders. There are other people I call settlers, like they have an existing practice and they just want to. That was me. I had an existing practice. I wanted to buy another one to bring in, I loved the team. There just were things I wanted to expand, and buying another practice was a great way. It's like building a deck on a house, you know, you just add to what you've got. But the mindset of somebody who wants to do that is totally different than a beginner. A beginner wants like the full package, like please have a long lease, have equipment, have all these things; I just want to walk in and start working. But a settler just says, I have everything I need. Really, maybe I only need your charts. Maybe I just need a little of this, a little of that. So think about who do you want to be your ideal buyer and kind of understand what they're looking for.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right. So what else is in the don'ts about selling? One of the things is: everybody likes to talk about selling on based on revenue. Right? What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Revenue is a great way to get someone's attention. But what I've noticed as I help people get their practice ready to sell, it's like a neon sign. Here's my revenue number. But then there's another wave of criteria. So I go right back to what's your competitive advantage? What else have you got? You have to have more than big revenue, or you've really limited your buyer pool if all you have is a lot of revenue. You know? You've just selected to not look at a whole bunch of people who are looking for something else. It behooves you to spend a little more time and say, So out of the two docs who have great revenue, which one should I pick? You have to be able to differentiate yourself. It's called branding in other industries, but you have to differentiate yourself from the next guy who looks just like you on paper.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And especially if they are super GPs, making all the revenue. Right? And that is a tough one. Is that what constitutes you have one of those items as unsellable business? Would that be one of them? Is that totally separate in your?

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
No, no. No, no. That's, one doc I worked with. He's a wonderful doc. Great, did great work. But he didn't do the sales. He would present the case, and then he'd leave the room, and his office manager came in, and she was a closer. She could sell anything. And I warned him. I said, Well, what if she decides she doesn't want to work anymore? You're going to have somebody come in who can't generate enough revenue to pay you or to pay back the note because his closer's not there. So you really have to take all these things into consideration. Like, what is the doc responsible for? What does your team do for you? Which is nice, but you got to make sure you got a depth to your bench because you don't know if they're going to stay or not. These are conversations to have way ahead of time, so that you feel confident. You have to go into these transaction conversations with great clarity about what you're bringing to the table and what are your non-negotiables, like prioritize things because you're going to have to negotiate. But what's non-negotiable? What are you going to not give up? And those are great conversations to have with your family, with your spouse, just so everybody knows what's going on, and it's just not fun if everybody's not on the same page.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, that's great. That's great tips. So in your experience, were there any dental offices that you worked with on the selling side that was not able to sell?

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
At the moment weren't able to sell? Oh, absolutely.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Meaning like they ignored it, they did not come to you before they were thinking of selling. They just came to you and go like, Hey, Ruth, can you help me sell my practice? And this is what it is, like as is coming to you.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
So what happens is the broker says, Ruth, they went to the table. It didn't work. They don't know how to fix it. Can you help them fix this? That's where. So the failure or the no-sell happened before me. And then we went back and said, Okay, let's look at all these things, all the things we talked about. Today, it wasn't sellable, but it doesn't mean you can't make corrections, which take a little time, But there's nothing to say that you can't make corrections and go back to the table fully prepared and very confident about what you're doing.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Got it. Okay. So they kind of have to still stay around and make sure they tweak things up before they go back to the market, right?

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Yes, or you just take what the market gives you. The market will buy a messy practice, but you won't get top dollar for it. You're not going to be happy. It was such a big deal to me. I started from scratch. I built everything, and then to not get what I thought I was expecting, I was crushed. And I don't want any more dentists to have, or any business owner, to have that experience of. That's a huge chunk of my life. Lots of my hours put into that, and to not walk away feeling like, Yes, this was such a great end to my career as a dentist.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it. Well, Dr. Ruth, thanks so much. What else can you give as a last tip to a dentist?

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Let's see. And actually, I wanted to say we have some resources for the docs if they'd like. I have a checklist of things to consider before you think you're ready. So if they go to PrepItNow.com, there's a resource there they can get. It's just a checklist. Very simple

Dr. Noel Liu:
PrepItNow.com.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Right. PrepItNow.com

Dr. Noel Liu:
Simple checklist to make sure they are checking every single item in there.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Exactly. And it's a whole bunch of questions; things you got to sit down and think about so that you know what's important to you and what's not.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Perfect. We will definitely have the link below. So with that being said, is there any way, anyone who wanted to reach out to you, how would they do that?

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
My email is Ruth@ShorelineStrategies.com. That's the easiest way that comes directly to me. And most of my conversations do start privately. That's just the best way to do it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Perfect. Well, thanks so much, Ruth, for joining in. I think what you just shared was amazing. This is something which many people would benefit from, and I wish that everybody can reach out to you who's on the sales side at this time. So start tweaking things up.

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:
Yes. Thank you so much. This was great conversation. I appreciate it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Well, everyone, thanks again. We're going to land the plane here. Make sure you like and subscribe, and we will see you on our next episode.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Dr. Ruth Mannschreck:

Dr. Ruth Mannschreck is a seasoned dentist and astute business strategist, leveraging over three decades of hands-on experience as both a practitioner and practice owner to guide fellow dental professionals. As the founder of Shoreline Strategies LLC, her mission is born from her own challenging experiences, particularly a practice sale where she admittedly “left a ton of money on the table” due to a lack of preparedness. This pivotal moment fueled her passion to educate others.

Dr. Mannschreck specializes in two key areas through her virtual training programs: “The Business Lifestyle by Design,” which focuses on creating self-sufficient practices that grant owners their life back (a system she developed after needing to condense her own practice to two-and-a-half days a week), and “Prep It to Sell,” dedicated to ensuring practice owners maximize their business’s value and navigate the sales process with clarity and confidence. She champions proactive, early preparation for sale, emphasizing the importance of strong systems, empowered teams, clear communication, understanding buyer psychology, and identifying a practice’s unique competitive advantage to make it a truly “turnkey” and attractive asset.

 

Things You’ll Learn:

  • Begin preparing your dental practice for sale from its inception by creating systems that allow it to operate independently of you. This not only boosts its future sale value but also significantly improves your current work-life balance.
  • Involve your team early and transparently in the long-term vision for your practice, including the eventual plan to sell. This fosters trust, reduces anxiety, and can make your practice more attractive to buyers who value a stable, engaged team.
  • Understand that not all buyers are the same; different types (like new graduates, DSOs, or established dentists expanding) have varying needs and motivations. Identifying and preparing for your ideal buyer can optimize your sale’s outcome and price.
  • Go beyond simply increasing revenue by actively working to decrease risks for potential buyers, such as diversifying patient referral sources and key staff responsibilities. Clearly articulating your practice’s unique competitive advantage is also crucial for standing out.
  • Avoid the common mistake of waiting until you’re ready to retire to think about selling; start early to align your practice’s peak performance with your desired exit timeline. This proactive approach prevents selling a declining asset or missing the optimal sale window. 

Resources:

  • Connect with and follow Dr. Ruth Mannschreck on LinkedIn, or email her directly here.
  • Explore Shoreline Strategies LLC’s website
  • Learn more about Shoreline Strategies LLC’s programs here!
  • Listen to the Team Led Business Success Podcast on Apple Podcasts.
  • Get Ruth’s free “10 Things to Do Before Selling a Business” Checklist here.
Categories
Podcast

From One to Many: Scaling Your Dental Practice the Right Way

From One to Many: Scaling Your Dental Practice the Right Way

Summary:

A clear vision is essential, but the end goal should be well-defined with valuation expectations, post-sale structure, and employment terms. 

In this episode, Diwakar Sinha, CEO of Polaris Healthcare Partners, discusses strategies for dental practices to scale, expand, and ultimately transact. He explains the importance of determining the “why” behind scaling, considering the post-transaction landscape, and understanding valuation expectations. Diwakar also provides practical advice on capital acquisition, responsible debt management, and the challenges associated with growing from one to multiple locations, including the “black holes” at practices three and five. He also emphasizes the need to demonstrate improved financial performance and leadership team scalability, and he discusses the economic arbitrage opportunities when smaller practices are acquired by larger groups. He also offers guidance for new dentists considering de novo startups versus acquisitions. 

Tune in and learn how to prepare your practice for successful scaling and potential transactions, while ensuring you’re building towards a financially secure future!

 

Secure Dental_Diwakar Sinha: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental_Diwakar Sinha: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for this podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hey, welcome to another episode of our Secure Dental podcast, where we bring in many different talents from both inside and outside our dental industry. And today we have a really special treat here: Diwakar Sinha. He is the CEO of Polaris. Polaris is a full-time consulting firm that helps dental practices scale, expand, make them out there into the market with capital, with scaling, with processes. Anything to do with numbers and financial, this is a guy we want to contact. So, Diwakar, let's go, man. Love to have you. Thanks for coming on. And the floor is yours. What's your background?

Diwakar Sinha:
Thank you for having me. Yeah. So my background is 17 years in transaction advisory after that, but 17 years in the lower-middle market and middle market space, providing capital in the form of debt to dental companies, medical urgent care companies, pharmacy companies, all healthcare. And then I transitioned to the transaction advisory space and have transacted over a couple hundred million dollars in the dental space. We've done plastic surgery. We've done work with ENT companies. So all different aspects of that, and also help businesses scale in the space. So our process at Polaris Healthcare Partners is to not only help businesses scale, but eventually help them transact in the space to whatever their goals are to a strategic partner or to eventually a private equity sponsor if they get to eventual scale.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So you guys basically consult, advise, and direct them, and also provide guidance throughout the process, right?

Diwakar Sinha:
And eventually transact. Yes.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Okay, cool. Now do they really have to transact or do they have to have something like a goal in mind, or do you just help consult as well?

Diwakar Sinha:
Yeah, more than half of the clients that come to us, they don't have a vision when they engage us in the beginning, and we help them guide on what their vision may be. We always want to work with the end in mind. Right? So if they don't have a goal, we want them to think about, are they building a legacy business? Are they thinking about going from 1 to 2 locations or five locations? Why are they building it? Why are they thinking about scale? Right? I think a lot of people go to conferences and think about building a DSO. What does building a DSO really mean? Are we setting up legal structures? Are we setting up multiple locations? Can we build one location with 15 operatories built in multi-specialty in one umbrella? What are we really trying to build? And the why; that's really important to us. And so we're trying to guide the clients that are calling us, doing a consult with us to really help them understand the why. And if their end goal is to transact, then we want them to understand the mathematical outcome they're looking for. And that could be a three-year horizon, that could be a ten year horizon. And then we walk them through that journey on what that journey looks like. And because it's not a lot of roses out there through the process, we want them to understand what that journey looks like.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So let's start with the end in mind. And I love that what you just said. So someone who's looking to transact. So let's say I got one practice, and I want to scale it up, and I want to transact eventually. I remember in our conversation you said about if you want to transact at a certain time frame, you need to start going backwards and thinking about the time frame. When and why is a good time to start thinking in terms of when do I want to transact? Like a few years? Five years? Ten years? 15 years? I want your experience on this.

Diwakar Sinha:
Yeah. So I always recommend for people to think about their valuation expectations first. Okay? So you've known me for a while. I'll use math as a denominator to think through it. So if somebody wants a 7X or 8X valuation and let's remove the EBITDA as a denominator for a second. Okay? Then they're typically tied to a five-year post-transaction event through employment or earnouts or some kind of a process. Okay? Now if somebody says, Hey, I only want to be two years post employment or post transaction, that limits our buyer pool. Now at Polaris, we have a huge strategic pool, a huge private equity pool when we take clients to market. We don't, we run a very broad process. So, I think that's important for people to think about: what are their valuation expectations. Now, so if somebody comes to us and says, I only want to be two years, now that 8X deal might go down to a 6X deal. Okay? Just because their exit horizon is only two years, or 6.5X. So I think how they're looking to exit the deal impacts the value of the deal. So my recommendation to your audience is come to us five years out. Let us evaluate, or before, let us evaluate your journey, and then give you the recommendation: are you two years out from your process? Five years out from your process? Seven years out from your process? What is the process you're looking for based on your goals?

Dr. Noel Liu:
So it's like the retirement number. You got to have that in mind, right? What is it that you're looking for?

Diwakar Sinha:
Yes. And I think we even help people come up with that number. And I'll give you a basic mathematical answer again. I think that people need to think about after they paid off all their debt. Okay? After they paid off all their debt. Right? Because you have to pay off your mortgage. If you have kids in college, think about the 529 plans. And if you don't have a 529 plan, nothing wrong with that. Either they're signing on for their student loan debt, or you're paying for their student loan debt, right? Or their college education. But after you paid all the obligations, whatever your living expense is, and let's say it's $200,000 or $300,000. Okay? You multiply that times 15 post tax basis. Everything's post-tax here. Okay? That will be the stream of income you need for 25 years. So I just gave your audience members a really easy math number. Now I'm no CFP. Okay? But that should give you a 5% rate of return. That should give you a fairly easy stream of income. So people that are looking for $300,000 in income on a post-tax basis or pre-tax basis, on that 5% return, need $4.5 million in their retirement account at a liquidity event. Okay? So I'm just giving you that math like $300,00 for four-and-a-half million dollars. So I think that just allows a 25-year stream of income. So those are the kind of things to think about in the math.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And with these numbers, the sky's the limit, right? You can retire whatever amount you want. One of the burning questions a lot of people ask is: Once when we transact, what is the post-sale look like? And since you've done so many of these transactions, what are some of the stuff, like the stuff you've seen? Which are favorable for the dentist owner and which are not favorable for the dentist owner? And I remember your conversation was like, Not all the deals are the same. Getting more money does not mean it's a better deal, something along those lines like post transaction. And then we'll come back to the other stuff.

Diwakar Sinha:
Sure. Yeah. I always say, Devil's in the details, right? So most of our deals are, most of our clients do not go for the highest multiple. And I think it's very important to understand because as the highest multiples sometimes have caveats in the legal aspects of it of, and you can understand it. When somebody is paying a premium for your transaction, they're going to look for some level of protection on the legal side. So you have to kind of balance the last half of a turn or last one turn with what you're willing to compromise in the legal aspect or structure aspect of the deal. So it is our goal as the advisory firm, to work with our client to help them balance those needs. To think about, the difference to think about is: one aspect is the employment term. So the employment term is going to dictate some level of valuation change on what that looks like. The involvement of the principal of the business, actively within the business, does dictate some level of valuation of the business. So when we work with clients, one of the biggest challenges that a lot of principals have is how dependent is the business on the principal. And a lot of principals have a difficult time transitioning out of the chair to running the business; even when they're running the business, how they can scale back from running the business and letting the operations team run the business without them. And as you work with Aidan and as we work with a lot of principals, our goal is for the business to run independent. We want our clients to go on vacation, travel the world for 2 to 3 weeks, and the business actually has an uptick when they're on vacation. We want them to say, Oh, the business didn't really miss me. And that's a good running, efficient business. And if we can demonstrate that when we're taking a business to market, and if I can demonstrate that on a CIM, which is confidential information memorandum, and show systems within the business are performing quarter over quarter, year over year, then I can get the extra half a turn, extra one turn on that business, even if the employment terms and the structure of the deal are more conservative. When I say conservative, where my client may say, Hey, I don't want to do a five-year employment term, but I would like to do a three-and-a-half or a three-year if I can, the business is not really dependent on me because you've helped me scale back from the business, and I like to have some level of flexibility on it, because now I can demonstrate different things within the business. So it all comes down to: What can I demonstrate? The other aspect is just like publicly-traded companies. If you look at stocks within a business, stocks go up to some level; not knowing exactly how. There's a lot of variables in stocks. They tend to go up when somebody can see a leadership team forecast the earnings and the revenue of a business, and how that company hits the predictability of that stock a quarter later. Okay? So it is our goal with the principals and the executive team ability to forecast their revenue, forecast their net expenses, forecast their ability to see the number of patients, and execute on that strategy quarter after quarter, and improve that quarter after quarter. And if they can do that, we can demonstrate that, now we can take that business to market, show that to the strategic partner or the private equity partner as they're scaling their business; that, Hey, this company forecasted. This is their notes. This is their quarterly meeting notes from their board meeting. Okay? They demonstrated that they actually hit it. And we're able to demonstrate that in our process.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Diwakar, this is huge. This is huge. I'm serious. Because guys like us, we are so entangled in the business that we, it's hard for us to pull ourselves out. And what you just mentioned, it's like this huge nugget. So you're saying like, as much as we can pull ourselves away from the business, and the business is operating on its own, that's where you get the highest multiple. Is that correct? With the leadership team.

Diwakar Sinha:
With the leadership team. And if you can show that, yeah. That's really because it's about scale. It's about the ability to scale the business.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So someone who's really entangled in a business right now, and they really want to take it to the private equity, and they're just looking at the EBITDA, you were probably, in your experience, say that's not a good time to go yet. Correct?

Diwakar Sinha:
Again, if you're 1 to 2 locations, I mean, you're going to be tied to the business. I just want to kind of caveat that. Yeah, if you're 1 to 2 locations, you're going to be tied to some level to the business because you're probably in the chair. Nothing wrong with that. You're still going to get a good valuation for your practice and you're going to strategic. You're going to strategic at 1 to 2 locations, 1 to 3 locations. If you're at 10 to 25 locations, your options are strategic, your options are sponsors. Okay? So it really comes down to and what kind of back office have you built? Have you built a good centralized back office? What is your uniqueness? You know, these are the questions we're asking our clients. What makes you different than some of the existing platforms in the space? Okay. So when we take on a client to take them to market, to transact, and they're at 15, 25, 40 locations, we're actually asking questions like a buyer. What's different about you? But then again, going downstream, if somebody is at two locations, at three locations, and we're taking into the market, we're still asking the questions. Okay? What the questions there would be? What is your valuation expectations? And what is different about you in the market? Let's say if somebody is located in Dallas, Texas, or somebody's located in San Antonio, Texas, what is unique about your business, and how have you weathered the competition in your market in 2024 or 2025? And how do you see your business performing going in 2026? And we have to be able to work with them to show quarter-over-quarter improvement and going to market, because that's what's going to; even if that business is going to transact at 6X or 7X, my goal is to transact it for an extra quarter-and-a-half a turn, because I can show that business performing better than their peers and that our principal, our client, has the ability to outperform the market.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Got it. So it's pretty much, it's very tailored, right, to someone's goals and someone need and what's out there.

Diwakar Sinha:
Yes. I mean, our approach is personalized. Yes.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right. All right. So we talked about the last, the goal, like what's going to happen on a transit? Let's come back. Let's come back in time a little bit. I'm going to pull you back to, let's say, we have 1 or 2 locations or three locations. Now we want to start growing. We want to take our organization. We want to grow up into, like let's say, into multiple locations. What are some of the challenges? I know for sure, capital is one of the biggest challenges for sure. And then of course, is the processes and the systems. What's your take on that, on what the capital market is? Like how do we get capital to grow and fund our growth?

Diwakar Sinha:
Sure. So as I said earlier, I was in the credit markets for about 17 years. So I always tell everybody this: I can get you in debt. Doesn't matter. So finding capital for clients, that's not a concern for us. The question is being responsible with that credit and deploying that in a meaningful way. And the question is: Why are you taking on the debt? And I'll give you an example of it, and I'll go in, and how scale matters when you're taking on debt. So let's say you're buying a practice grossing $1 million, and you have two locations. You're buying a third location, and you're buying a practice grossing $1 million. And let's say the transaction firm is selling for 80% of revenue and it's $800,000. When you take on that debt, you're going to the bank for $800,000 loan. The practice is selling for $800,000. The day after you've transacted, you have zero equity, just like real estate, right? When you buy real estate, the value of your loan, even if you put money into it to the value of the property, your equity in that position is zero. Okay? So our goal with that client is to say, Okay, what are we going to do with that, with that asset we bought? Okay? How are we going to improve that asset from grossing $1 million to $1.5 million to $2 million? So we have to have a plan for growth before we acquire it. Okay? So we have to see some kind of a CAGR, compound annual growth rate, within an 18 to 24-month plan within the business. So if you add on debt and if you're going to take on debt, the ability to continuously have access to capital has to have foresight, which means you have to be able to show yourself first, forget about the bank, that you can take on that debt, you can repay that debt, and that you can create equity within every business you buy within 12 to 18 months before you buy the next one. Okay? That's responsible lending to yourself first, before you show responsible lending to the bank. So we work with our clients to think through that philosophy as you grow. But the capital is available. Cost of capital in 2023 and '24 were extremely high. So for secured overnight finance rate was really high. Those conditions have gone down a little bit. Prime has gone down. In my podcast, end of last year, I talked about that a Prime is going to go down in Q1. It's gone down a little bit. I think going into Q3, Q4, we're going to see cost of capital, probably by Q4, going down by at least 50 basis points. We're not going to see some of those changes today, but I think we're going to see going into Q3, Q4, another 50 basis points. It's going to be too politically driven to have it done right now. But I think you're going to see unemployment go up a little bit. You're going to see some level of uptick in inflation going up a little bit. But I think everything's a lagging indicator with the Federal Reserve's. So they're going to probably react to a little bit in Q3 and then a little bit of Q4. So we're going to, hopefully, see Prime go down to 7.1% to 7% by the end of the year. And I think that's really, that's going to, again, create some level of excitement going into the capital markets towards debt, towards equity, and all those things. And those are the kind of things. So to coming out of 24, credit's readily available. Credit was available in '24, but you had to have a really good performing business. In '25, credit's available, now, for businesses $2 million in check size to $500 million. I mean, that's the space we play in; above $2 million in assets. A lot of people are going to the traditional banks in this space and having a tough time getting debt above $2 million. That's where we really play, you know? So that's not a challenge for us. And then institutional debt where we sometimes play is above $50 million and goes into $250 million.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Got it. Got it. So okay. No, that's great. That's great to know about capital market. Let's go back to basics, man. Why would somebody want to grow?

Diwakar Sinha:
That's a great question. I think those are very individual conversations we're having when clients are coming to us. I think a lot of our people that come to us are entrepreneurs, right? They're wanting to fulfill a vision. They have a practice that are one locations or two locations. They're getting, wanting to see the practice grow within their four walls. They're wanting to grow to second or third locations. So that's one aspect of it. I always caution them. I said, Hey, you know what? Be cautious about it. Growth is not always successful, right? So think about your four walls first. Think about have you maximized your utilization within your four walls? And the thing I would think, get people to think about is: before you get to the next acquisition, think about: are you at $300,000 in revenue per operatory within your four walls? Okay? So that's probably a key takeaway for your audience members. So six-share operatory should be doing at least $1.8 million. An 8-share operatory should be doing about $2.4 million. If you're a run rate to do that, great; now let's start thinking about the next acquisition. But also understand: do you have the bandwidth to do it? What is the quality of work life balance you're looking for when you're thinking about those things? Are you comfortable with taking on additional debt? So these are conversations we're having with people to make sure they understand that when you go from practice one, to practice number two, to practice number three, is that something you're ready for and ready to? I think you asked earlier, the biggest challenge ends up being practice number three and practice number five. Those are really the dark holes for a lot of people. Practice number three is where they really need to start stepping away clinically, maybe down to two days a week because somebody has to work on the business. If you're not working on the business, we start to see financial performance and clinical performance drop down in the business at practice number three. And by practice number five, they need to bring on a regional manager to run their operation in conjunction with them being on the business 2 to 3 days a week.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So that black hole. Do you see oftentimes see see a lot of practitioners, they go down, like pretty significantly in those?

Diwakar Sinha:
Third practice is really the one we see the biggest drop in impact in financial performance. The third practice is probably the biggest one. If they can get past the third one, they can get to the fourth one; they start to see a little bit of an uptick. The fifth one is the next one. We see a bigger drop in, for two reasons. One, they bring in on the regional manager. Sometimes the regional manager is not a successful hire. They're still trying to figure out their clinical schedule with running their business from afar. They might have associate turnover. Again, it's that fifth. Again, these are third and fifth one, are the really the big black holes within their practice. So just managing that, having the foresight to it, stress-testing your business, stress-testing your cash flow, I think those are very important things. So anybody that's thinking about their third practice or their fifth practice de novo or acquisition, I would drop your revenue down by 10% and test it and say, Okay, if that happens to my business, how does my cash flow look? How does my lifestyle look? And what is my cash reserve look like under that environment?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Sure. And if someone have a stomach to take it, they go for it. Otherwise, they just stay where you are. Correct?

Diwakar Sinha:
Yes. Yeah. And if you don't have the cash position today, then build up the cash position. And I always tell people they need to have six months of operating capital in cash reserves.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Six months of operating reserve. I love it, I love it. Now, when you say six months, it's like, how often should somebody from a business start replenishing that cash? Let's say if they used it up. Is there a metric? Is there a formula? Or is it like just case-by-case basis?

Diwakar Sinha:
So we use a rule of a third of excess cash. So I'm giving you a lot of, your audience members are getting a lot of tidbits from this thing.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh yeah. Big time.

Diwakar Sinha:
So the majority of businesses have maybe one month of operating reserve and cash reserves. It's just what we see in the market out there. So not to panic anybody in the market, there's a path forward, right, to get people there. And the way to think about it is: as we help you improve performance within your business, okay, is to look at your improved cash flow, which is after debt service; improve cash flow after your normalized clinical compensation, which is you're paying yourself as a normal doctor for working within the practice. So pay yourself normally, okay? And let's say, based on your improved performance, we're able to show that you're getting an extra $20,000 a month in cash flow. Okay? A third. A third goes to pay taxes. Put into your tax account, tax reserves, because Uncle Sam's got to get paid. Okay? A third goes into your cash reserves for the business, which is help replenish your six months of operating capital.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it.

Diwakar Sinha:
Okay? And a third goes into immediate gratification. Because if we don't realize it ourselves, and we don't realize that we're able to put it into our personal savings account and our personal checking account and show that to our spouses and our family and our children, and go on vacations and say, You know what? We are working hard, and this is what owning a business is about. Okay? Then we're not able to validate for ourselves the reason we're working harder and what our business is to be able to provide for us. So a third.

Dr. Noel Liu:
The rule of thirds. I love it, I love it, man. So let's talk about multiples. We, you and I, we just spoke about the business should be ready to transact. Right? Like, what are some of the preparation stuff that we do? I mean, we don't really have to decide, like, Hey, we're going to transact, we're going to sell. But I feel like at any given time that business should have like a valuation done, and should be ready to go. What are your thoughts on that part?

Diwakar Sinha:
Absolutely. We recommend people every 3 to 5 years come to us for an analysis to see where their business is today. Even if they're transacting in ten years, just get an analysis. Like, Hey, somebody comes to us today, say, Hey, I'm looking to transact in 2030. Nothing wrong with that. We can have them do a due diligence and say, If your valuation expectations. Let's say you have two locations. Okay? And we actually did that with somebody that has two locations. And their valuation expectations was $8 million. Okay? And based on what their business is today, they're probably on track to hit 5 million. Okay? And we said, Hey, these are the things you need to be thinking about if you want to get to where your valuation expectations are in five years. We actually provided them the guidance today if they want to work towards those goals. Okay? And we gave them the guidance to think through it. That's our discovery day of go-to market. So, and said, Hey, why don't you come back to us in another two years? Because that will put you right around another three years from that, from a transaction. And we need to, at that point, think about going to market. So you have two years to fix the operational issues in the business we identify today if you're thinking of transacting in 2030.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So would you recommend that someone looking to grow and acquire practices that they need to fix their existing ones and the current books first, right, before actually going out there to the market and saying, Hey, I want to buy another practice, another practice?

Diwakar Sinha:
Yes, financial reporting is so essential within the business. And when we onboard a client, I mean, that's one of the first things we notice. We onboard, and we do a financial due diligence and operational diligence in the company. So financial reporting is: if you don't have clear line of sight within the business, then how are you running the business from my lens, right? Yes, you can look at production reports, clinical reports, and yes, it gives you some level of line of sight. And I really do appreciate when you have a reporting like dental intel and practice analytics, it allows you to understand how patient care is being done within the practice. Absolutely appreciate that. But having good financial reporting that allows you to understand exactly what things, how operational performance is tied to financial performance in a real-time basis, which means you should have financial reporting within ten days to max 15 days after month end, that gives you clear KPIs. Means: if you're trying to run supply expenses at 4.5% of your top line revenue, you should know that by the 10th to 15th day of the month that you are there. If you're trying to keep dental assistant wages around 7% or 8% or 9%, depending on your business model, some businesses have a dental wage expense of 9% in their model, nothing wrong with it. Even the industry might say 7%. Nothing wrong with that because we'll say, Okay, your model does deserve it because you are XYZ type of dentistry. Okay? We will accommodate that. But we need to have that reporting by the 10th day of the month because we need to be able to pivot if we're looking to make a change within the business. So that's really important. And that comes down to changing from cash to accrual, especially for.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Cash to accrual.

Diwakar Sinha:
Cash to accrual, as you, especially a lot of businesses, when we take them to market, if you're exceeding; this goes into the larger groups. When you start exceeding five locations, when you start exceeding $2 million in EBITDA, we're probably the only firm that will take a client and ask him to do a sell side QofE: the quality of earnings. We believe in that wholeheartedly. Our due diligence typically is about.

Dr. Noel Liu:
What is that? What is that? And let's talk about why.

Diwakar Sinha:
Yeah. So the best way for me to describe a quality earnings is like a home inspection. When you buy a house, the buyer is going to do a home inspection. Right? And they're going to find go through every cabinet door, refrigerator, turn every faucet on and off, and they're going to say. And no home inspection comes out and tells you, You have a perfect house from a buy side. Okay? So I always tell people, When you're selling a house, get your home inspection done so you know what's wrong with your house. Okay? And you know exactly where you stand. Okay? So when we have a business that is over about one-and-a-half to $2 million, and I talk about this in our podcast, we do, have our clients do a sell side QofE. It allows us to have a higher level of accuracy when we take a deal to market and have a defensible position in the market. Okay? A defensible position in the market. And so now you have two positions in the market: a Polaris financial metrics and a sell side QofE third party firm. Okay? Both with a very close number. And our numbers are within 5% typically, max maybe 7% off from a sell side QofE. A buy side is going to come in and have their QofE, quality of earnings also done. Okay? Their house inspection done of auditing your financial numbers. Okay? And they're going to have a difficult time looking at that number and having a much variance number because you have two firms. Having a number that's very close to each other, they're going to come in within your number. Okay? So that allows people to have a closing LOI be very close to the initial LOI from our process, because our numbers are so close to typical third-party QofEs in our process. So quality of earnings is a financial diligence typically done 1 to 2 years out. Okay?

Dr. Noel Liu:
1 to 2 years out.

Diwakar Sinha:
Oh, I'm sorry 1 to 2 years back. Apologize. In a business. So if you're orthodontics, we go back two years within the business because orthodontics patient cycles are 18 to 24 months. If they're general, we go back 12 months to maybe 18 months, depending on the type of business we're looking at within the business. And it's important: the larger the cycle of the business, if it starts becoming more than $5 million in EBITDA, we might go more than 12 months. If it's closer to 1 million to 1.5 million in EBITDA, close to 1.5 million, we're just doing 12 months. But it's well worth it. We're able to drive valuation of the business. What is the impact of it? For example, whenever we have a sell side QofE deals based on our Rolodex, we're able to drive a certain quality of buyer to the letter of intent, certain valuation to our letter of intent, because what we've done for the buyer is given them confidence. Just like when you buy a house, imagine when you're looking at a house. You have five houses to look at. One house has a home inspection already done on it. The other four houses have no home inspection done on it. Just takes your level of stress away. When you're buying that house, that home inspection is done, and you know what's done. Now, you may do your own home inspection because you need to have something that reflects your interest. But if that home inspection is done for you, you know, yeah, you know, that faucet in the kitchen is not going to work; it's going to cost me $200 to have a handyman fix it. Okay? But you're aware of it, and you're comfortable with it versus the other four houses are not giving you that information. Okay? And that's really our process in the market, is to ensure there's a higher level of confidence with our clients to the buyer space. So when the deal is going to market, we have more confident LOI's being issued. Our clients understand that we have a bona fide offer on the table.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it, love it. Would you recommend everybody just do it just for the sake of doing it? Or is it only when you're about to transact?

Diwakar Sinha:
I always recommend to call us, and understand does it make sense for them, because it is an expense they take on board that needs to make sense for their business. We have some clients that are going to market in 2028 that we're doing that for them right now. So they're going to do one now, one in two years because they're actually prepping for their business two years ahead. So that's really a process that's a little more personalized to them two years out, because we're trying to test their process two years out. So it doesn't make sense for everyone to answer your question.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Got it. Switching gears a little bit. Coming back to, we're slowly going back to the single practice. Right? So now we are looking at a group practice trying to buy a single practice. Aiden keeps talking about arbitrage. I want you to shine some light on what is that and why does it matter? So let's say a group of 6 or 7 locations trying to buy one practice. What is the difference in that multiple that we're looking at?

Diwakar Sinha:
Yeah. So we've worked with a lot of groups that are 5 to 10 locations that are buying one to two-location practices in the market. And there's a, this play of arbitrage which is economic upside within a deal. Okay? So instead of the doctors that are 1 to 2 locations transacting with a strategic that is private equity-backed, they're consolidating within doctor-to-doctor-owned practices. So there's this big movement coming out of 2023, 2024, that they're not going to big strategics in the market; they're actually transacting within the doctor pool. So you have this big 5 to 15-location group growing in the space. And what this economic arbitrage is, if you have a doctor location group that has five locations and let's say, they're $2 million in EBITDA. Okay? And let's say their valuation is 7X or 8X in the market. Okay? They can acquire a practice, a solo location, at 5X. Okay? Maybe 6X. Okay? Depending on where that practice is, EBITDA is at. And the next day, they can roll it into their cap table or their ownership table at 7X or 8X. So the moment they roll it in, there's a one-turn improvement maybe a two-turn improvement. Okay? And that's for both sides. That's for the doctor that's rolling their equity in. And that's also beneficial for the party that's rolling that doctor in. So it's mutually beneficial for both parties that they can continue to grow that journey together. So hopefully, the doctor that's rolling in their practice into the five-location group has a good partnership plan in place or growth strategy plan in place for that. And the five-location group that's working with that one-location doctor has a good plan to support them to grow that business. So it needs to be mutually beneficial on that side. And so when we're working on that buy side to help bring that partnership together, you know, that economic arbitrage is immediate because of the delta between the 7X and the 6X or 7X and the 5X is immediate. But also there needs to be a long-term plan improvement for both parties.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And you guys at Polaris help with advising both sides or one side, depending on who you're representing. Correct?

Diwakar Sinha:
Well, yeah, nine out of ten times we get brought in by the group that's like 3 to 5 locations or ten locations. Yeah, but we actually are working on both sides. We'll go, and if our five-location client or ten-location client is not being fair towards the one-location doctor, we'll say, I think if we do this decision, you're going to kill the deal. And we don't want them to kill the deal. We want it to be equitable. Because to me, a good partnership is a partnership where that one-location doctors, feels that the goodwill was given sincere consideration from the beginning. Right? And because it's not, even if they're rolling over 30%, 40%, let's not go over the $30,000 or $50,000-valuation change; let's focus on what this journey looks like over the next 5 to 10 years.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Cool. Well, I got this last topic here for you.

Diwakar Sinha:
Sure.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Now, I'm a new dentist. I just started I want to grow a group, and that is a lot of the dental students nowadays I'm seeing. They're, for some reason, they all want to grow a group for some reason, right? De novo or acquisition as a first, very first practice? And pros and cons of both.

Diwakar Sinha:
So that's a really tough question for me because I've done over a thousand de novos as a credit banker. And I've done a few hundred acquisitions in my last seven years. They both work really well. So I'll answer the question. And I actually spoke at the Academy Dental group practices on this topic specifically. And so de novos are meaningfully successful in the fact that if you are willing to spend 500,000 to 600,000, 700,000, depending on the square footage of the space, and you have a good marketing plan in place, and you can get to 40 to $50,000 in production in the first month, okay, there's a whole plan in place around that, and if you have a plan in place with new patient flow to get to $1 million in revenue, in the first 18 months, okay, they're going to be very successful. And if you look at a lot of successful models for de novos, they're trying to get to $1 million in revenue in the first 18 months. Okay? And you can build a successful group practice that way. Okay? But you need to be able to reverse engineer your plan, okay? And you need to have patience and fortitude to be able to build a successful de novo model. 50% of our clients, 60% of our clients that do group practices are de novo models. Okay? You look at Pacific Dental Services, historically, they've been a de novo model; very successful in the market. Okay? Deca Dental overall was a de novo model; very successful in this space. So really good brands in this space that do a really good aspect of de novo. So I don't want to discourage people from building de novos. I think the challenge ends up being that is, are you okay with low cash flow in the beginning? But I think that could be offset by having planning into your business model. And we help people plan. So if somebody is a startup doctor thinking about it, give us a call. We can help you think through it as far as what that looks like. As far as acquisition goes, if you're thinking about your acquisition in your situation, ideally buying a practice that's six shares. Okay? If you can. Now that may not be available in your market. Okay? You might be looking at a 3-chair or 4-chair practice in your first practice. Okay? Don't be discouraged by it. Buy a practice that has a low-remaining lease term. Okay?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Low-remaining lease term.

Diwakar Sinha:
Low-remaining lease term. I said that specifically with intent. Reason being, if you're looking to scale a group practice, okay, buyers in the space want multiple-provider practices, okay? They do not want single-provider locations. So four-chair practices are not very attractive in the buyer space. Okay? They want 6 to 8 shares. Okay? That becomes very attractive in the space because their concern is if a doctor resigns or a doctor quits, am I shutting down that practice in that location? So if you're looking at a practice that has three chairs or four chairs, absolutely go for it. Acquire it. Just look at it to make sure it's got a two-year, three-year lease remaining on it. Or if a bank's requiring you to have a five-year lease, great. Get a two-year lease with three one-year renewals on it. Get to a five-year lease. Satisfy the bank. Okay? At the end of two years, if you have three chairs on it, you should have $900,000 revenue. Remember I said: $300,000 per operatory? Okay? You would have bought that practice for hopefully a good economic value. You would have created good equity. Remember I said: when you buy a practice, you need to create equity within 18 months. Borrow responsibly. And at that point, relocate that practice that has three chairs or four chairs to a 6 to 8-share facility, 12 months before your lease is expiring. And then, you know, now you've set up your, for lack of better word, Taj Mahal of your first practice. That's your 8-chair practice. You're bringing on your associate; work on your leadership skills; build out your team; scale back to maybe from five days or four days to three days; figure out how you're running the business on the business before you think about going to your second location.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's a nugget right there. That's a huge one. Why does banks have so much a problem giving out loans on a de novo versus an acquisition? If everything is planned out, like you as a banker, you did a lot of underwriting. What is the biggest concern they have? Is it the operator or is it the de novo in general?

Diwakar Sinha:
So I think, so I'll speak from what may be happening out there. So one is could be the operator. One could be the business plan. Okay? So business plans are a lot. Okay? And I think a lot of people may not be thinking about their business plans clearly. And, Noel, I'm happy to help people think through the business plan on another podcast. Because I've done a lot of business plans, and we actually have a curriculum internally on how business plans should be for group practices and how business plans should be for private practices that are 1 to 2 locations, and how to think about de novo versus acquisitions on growth strategies. And when they're thinking, so that's one aspect of it. The second aspect is that banks look at how doctors are applying for startups. So these are some criterias out there that are in the market. So if somebody's coming out of dental school that does not have GPR, okay, general practice residency behind there, on there, then they're going to have a tough time getting bank financing without GPR. Okay? So I don't know if some of your audience members are having those challenges or not. But typically, under, without a GPA it's tough. Okay? With the GPR, you typically have to have one-year license. Okay? Without a GPR, you have to have two-year license. Okay? So these are some things to just put it as a guardrail to think about. Okay? Then typically, I'm going to give you a lot of credit aspects of how to think about on that side. In addition to that, most banks are looking for doctors to at least make about 175 to $200,000 in personal income. Okay? Why is that? Okay? Well, the average doctor has about 400 to $450,000 in student loan debt coming out. Okay? Even if they were on an income-based repayment program because they have $500,000 in a mortgage. Okay? Because they're going to have $500,000 mortgage. They might have one-car loan. Their spouse might be making 100, $150,000 to augment some of that personal household income; they still need to make $200,000. Why is the bank looking for that? They're saying, Okay, you're applying for a $500,000 bank loan. Okay? That needs to, at least, grow some million dollars in revenue at some point, even if it's three years out. Forget about my 18-month rule. Let's use a three-year rule that a bank may have on that practice, or a four-year rule that a bank may have on that practice. They're going to say, Okay, in order for that practice to do $1 million, that means the doctor has to have the ability to produce $800,000. Is he or she producing $800,000 today as an associate? And if they're not producing that as an associate, how will they be able to run a practice and produce $800,000 on their own? Okay? So those are the kind of underlying things that bank's looking at and thinking about and wanting to digest in their business plan, in their economic due diligence to think about long term when they're thinking about de novo underwriting. It becomes a little bit easier in acquisition. But on the acquisition side, it's actually a little more cleaner. More deals get turned down in acquisition financing than startup financing thinking about it, being if I'm a doctor making, let's say, $150,000, and let's say I'm buying a practice grossing $1.5 million, and the selling doctor's grossing $1.2 million, I'm producing $150,000, I'm making $150,000 as an associate. I'm clinically producing, let's call it, $500,000. Banks are not going to approve me for 1.2 million because the bank's going to be concerned how can I replace a $1.2 million producing doctor when I, as an associate, am only producing 5 or $600,000? This is the question a bank's going to ask, and I'm just giving you my banker's lens.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Great. Those are great nuggets because we as dentists, we don't think about bankers going to be knowing all this stuff. Right? So we are like, All right, cool. We got denied. Why? Right? No, I love it. I love it. Hey, anything else you would like to add? This was a great episode. Lots of nuggets, man.

Diwakar Sinha:
Yeah. I think just to take away as far as building a group practice or even if you're a 1 to 3 locations, just think with the end in mind. And if you don't have an end in mind, we're happy to have that conversation with you. Building a group practice can be great, it can be very rewarding, but it comes with challenges within that. So take a pause. Let's digest what that looks like for you. And we're happy to walk you through that. Whenever your exit is, really come to us five years out, seven years out, before that, help us let you understand what that looks like for you. Because to maximize the value of your business, you really need to transact five years out because most parties want you on board for 3 to 5 years to really provide that continuity and make sure they have good longevity within the business.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Absolutely. And Polaris does all the stuff here. In full disclosure, I was a client of Polaris as well, and we did take away lots of good stuff. And I think Aiden was our guy that he helped us with getting us set up. And so far, we're on the right projection. So the trajectory is right. I mean, the direction is good. So, Polaris does a lot to help any group practice. How can someone, what is the website there? Polaris.com?

Diwakar Sinha:
No, that's going to get you to the ATV website.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Okay. Okay.

Diwakar Sinha:
And our website is PolarisHealthcarePartners.com.

Dr. Noel Liu:
PolarisHealthcarePartners.com. I'm definitely going to put a link down there as well. And anyone, when they call, what are they expecting?

Diwakar Sinha:
Yeah, I think if they send me an email, I think they're going to get, depending on their need, we'll just do a basic console to understand what they're looking about. And we're happy to, again, just help them if they're a, coming out of residency, just thinking about a startup; we can just have a console with them, give them guidance. Probably 20% of my calls are people that are one year out. We're talking to people now that are one year out, thinking of building their first practice to your point, Noel, and we're just giving them the guidance on how to think about doing their de novo. So we're just happy to have conversations with people to think about what their future looks like in five years, ten years out. So just give us a call. Let us have a conversation with you. Help us give you your vision, give you your why, and guide you in what the right direction may be, coming out of the podcast.

Dr. Noel Liu:
All right. Great deal. Hey, Diwakar, thanks a lot for coming on. It was a great pleasure.

Diwakar Sinha:
No, thank you for having me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Lots of good tips. Yep. So we're gonna land the plane here. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for watching. And thanks for hearing. Make sure to like and subscribe, and we will catch you on our next episode.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Diwakar Sinha:

Diwakar Sinha is a seasoned executive and advisor with over two decades of experience in healthcare consulting, financial services, and strategic growth. As Founder & CEO of Polaris Healthcare Partners, he helps entrepreneurial healthcare providers scale their practices through clear strategy, operational excellence, and smart capital solutions. His work spans M&A advisory, equity structuring, and growth consulting, with a focus on building scalable, sustainable, and profitable group practices. 

Before Polaris, he co-founded TUSK Partners, a leading platform in dental practice brokerage and DSO advisory, where he helped reduce transactional friction and increase value for healthcare clients. Diwakar also held senior leadership roles in national banking institutions, including East West Bank, where he led a high-performing team focused on credit solutions for dental, veterinary, and medical practices. His ability to combine deep industry insight with financial and operational expertise makes him a trusted partner for healthcare entrepreneurs nationwide. 

Diwakar holds a BS in Aviation Science from The Ohio State University and brings a practical, growth-minded approach to every client engagement. Whether advising on multi-location expansion or sourcing growth capital, his focus remains the same: helping clients build practices that fulfill both their financial goals and their personal vision.

Things You’ll Learn:

  • Plan your exit strategy well in advance. It helps to start thinking about the business end goal at least 5 to 7 years before. Planning allows for better preparation and valuation and gives the business owner more opportunities for financial freedom.
  • When aiming for private equity acquisition, don’t just focus on EBITDA. Instead, prioritize building a strong leadership team and systems that allow the business to operate independently of the owner. This drives up the multiples and shows the ability to scale.
  • Be cautious of growing too fast. Practice number three is a significant challenge where operational gaps can impact financial performance, so you must step away from the chair and start working on the business.
  • Follow the “Rule of Thirds” to manage excess cash flow effectively. One-third should go towards taxes, one-third should replenish cash reserves, and one-third can be used for immediate personal gratification, helping validate the rewards of ownership.
  • When you grow from 3 to 5 locations, you must acquire multiple provider practices rather than single-location providers. This helps mitigate the impact of doctor turnover.

Resources:

  • Connect with and follow Diwakar Sinha on LinkedIn.
  • Learn more about Polaris Healthcare Partners on LinkedIn and their website
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The Importance and Impact of a Fellowship Program in The World of Dentistry

Dr. Anabella Oquendo Ryan St. Germain, and Candy Tobar discuss the importance and impact of fellowship programs in dentistry, and highlight the importance of entrepreneurship, business acumen, communication, and high-performance habits in shaping well-rounded dentists.

Summary:

The fellowship programs at NYU College of Dentistry are transformative and provide students with both clinical skills and comprehensive leadership training.

In this episode, Dr. Anabella Oquendo, Assistant Dean for International Programs and Program Director of the Advanced Program for International Dentists and Aesthetic Dentistry, along with Ryan St. Germain, Executive Director, Development and Alumni Relations, and Candy Tobar, Alumni Relations, discuss the importance and impact of fellowship programs in dentistry. Dr. Oquendo shares her journey from international student to her current leadership role and the evolution of the fellowship program at NYU. The discussion spans the various fellowship specialties offered, including aesthetics, oral surgery, digital dentistry, and implant dentistry. The guests highlight the importance of entrepreneurship, business acumen, communication, and high-performance habits in shaping well-rounded dentists. Anabella and Ryan also address work-life balance challenges, especially regarding balancing the professional and personal lives. Moreover, Ryan and Candy speak about their work to explore the community and make others aware of the programs. Finally, Dr. Oquendo shares her vision for the future of the program, focusing on holistic health, leadership development, and technological advancements. 

Tune in and learn how these fellowships are shaping the future leaders of the dental profession!

Secure Dental_Anabella Oquendo & Candy Tobar & Ryan St. Germain: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental_Anabella Oquendo & Candy Tobar & Ryan St. Germain: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of our Secure Dental podcast, where we bring in many different talents from both inside and outside our dental industry. And today we are joined by none other than my alma mater from NYU College of Dentistry. We have special guests here, which I'm going to be naming in a little bit. But before we get started, just a quick shout out to our sponsor, DentVia. It's a dental virtual dental administration company that administered all the back-end staffing and all the back-end work. So with that being said, we're going to jump straight in because we do not want to miss any of this stuff that these guys are going to share with us. So starting this morning here we have Dr. Anabella Oquendo, assistant dean for international programs and program director of the Advanced Program for International Dentists and Aesthetic Dentistry. Now next we have Ryan St. Germain. This guy has been on our pod last time. He is like the back-end workhorse for the deans and the entire college; Executive Director, Development and Alumni Relations at NYU College of Dentistry. And now we got lastly, but not the least, Candy Tobar, my favorite. Candy, Alumni Relations at NYU College of Dentistry. And it's because of her that she got me to the school and got my relationship back with NYU College of Dentistry. So without further ado, we're going to pass the mic off to Dr. Anabella first. But before we do that, we just want to highlight about this podcast. So the title of this podcast is The Importance and Impact of a Fellowship Program in The World of Dentistry. And with that being said, Dr. Oquendo, let's start with you; just a brief background about you. And what does that title mean for you?

Anabella Oquendo:
Fantastic. First of all, I want to say thank you for having us here. It's such a pleasure. And I have to say, Candy, if you were the one that brought him back, thank you for that, because he's making really a big impact in the school and our program. So thank you for that one, Candy. And well, I'm happy to tell you, you want me to start about my role or where I'm coming from?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Let's start how you got into dentistry. And then, we'll slowly transition to that title of this podcast, right? Like the fellowship program and how we ended up over here. Like what got you into dentistry? First, let's start with that. Nice and easy.

Anabella Oquendo:
What got me to dentistry? Well, you know that I always wanted to be part of healthcare. Even as a kid, I used to go to hospitals or to my dental appointments and seeing the healthcare providers taking care of people, I felt a deep connection there. I knew I somehow I was going to be part of that. And as I refined my vision, I decided to go with dentistry. And I'm so passionate about dentistry. I think I made such a right decision. Right? It was the right choice. And I did my dentistry back in my country. I'm from Venezuela. And I practiced for about five years, but I kept dreaming of doing something bigger. Like I want to make a big change. I want to really make meaningful impact. So I packed those dreams, and I came to New York City. And I came to NYU College of Dentistry to make those dreams a reality. And I enrolled in the advanced program. It's now called Apa Advanced Clinical Fellowship for Aesthetic Dentistry. And I enrolled in this program. And it was not just about learning how to make beautiful smiles and restore the patient's confidence and joy; it was really about transforming life, including my own. And all of that was alongside the most fantastic mentors because if we had something here in NYU College of Dentistry is great mentors. And I learned back then the importance of a mentor is huge; having a mentor. Right? They really guide us, they shape us, they help us reach our full potential. And on the top of that, I also learned the importance of surrounding yourself with like-minded people, driven people to really be able to create big change. So in summary, my journey brought me to New York to NYU College of Dentistry, from being an international student to a faculty to program director of the program that gave me so much, and it was a way to give back to the students and give back to the dentistry, the community. And now I have a wider role, more like leadership as one of the deans of the school and the assistant dean for the international programs. And within that umbrella, do you want me to tell you what I do within the school now?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Yeah, absolutely. So how much time did you spend from the time when you were a student at NYU and then where are you now today? And then we can jump right into your role.

Anabella Oquendo:
That that's a good question. It was quite a journey. International student that was ... for two years, and right after I became a faculty. And after two years, three years after that, I became a program director of the study program. And it's almost four years now that I'm the assistant dean for the Office of International Programs.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Excellent. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. So what is your role currently now and how has it transpired like from what you did in the past and to what you're doing today?

Anabella Oquendo:
Okay. So I continue to be the director of the Apa Advanced Clinical Fellowship in Aesthetics. That's like my baby. I'm really focused on elevating the standards of that program and creating meaningful impact for both patients and students in the program, incorporating technology and always elevating what we do. No year is the same as the other one. There is always bigger, better, every year. And with the Dean role, I oversee now not just aesthetics, but all the advanced clinical fellowships. With that, we have the aesthetic program, digital dentistry, we have oral surgery, and our beloved Liu Advanced Clinical Fellowship for Implant Dentistry.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it.

Anabella Oquendo:
Thank you for everything you've done for that program. That program is excellent. It's two years, and they learn the prosthetics, and they learn the surgery. It's unbelievable program. And in part, it's because of you. So thank you for that one.

Dr. Noel Liu:
It's a team effort, and I love to be part of it. Absolutely.

Anabella Oquendo:
Great. And with that it's not just about aesthetics now. It's about touching every corner of our profession as I oversee all these different programs. And I made sure that the way we train our students and the way they learn is in an interdisciplinary approach. We have every corner of the profession among this program, so it's very comprehensive and very interdisciplinary. And the other piece that I do within the deanship is Global Outreach. So Global Outreach is a program where we bring care to communities in need, underserved communities. And at the same time, as we implement prevention systems, and we restore restores smiles, and we help people, at the same time, we're training the next leaders to take action and to lead with compassion. And we pass the baton, right? So this is also a beautiful program because it brings hope, and it makes a tangible difference to the people that need it the most. And whether it's international programs, advanced clinical fellowships, or global outreach, I always made sure that the education is exceptional, that we elevate dentistry, we elevate the life of our students and our patients, and we make meaningful impact, and always giving them and exposing them to great opportunities.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's absolutely right, because from some of the students, feedback that we got was most of the times when they are actually doing a procedure, they are really into it, and they understand all from a research point of view, and they also understand from a practical point of view. So what this program is doing is it's creating the next generation of leaders and also in there, that's going to impact the world of dentistry. Which brings me back to this title here, right, of this podcast today: The Importance and Impact of a Fellowship in The World of Dentistry. From Ryan's perspective, what does that mean to you and how is the school preparing these students to go out there in the real world and get some of this leadership and like getting the whole gamut of what we're doing at NYU? How are they affecting dentistry as a whole?

Anabella Oquendo:
I'm particularly passionate about that poem, by the way, because forever, dentistry was all about the clinical skills that define us, right? The perfect margin. And it was all about being a clinician and the clinical skills. And honestly, to be successful in dentistry, that's just a part of the puzzle. We need to wear all these many hats. And one of the greatest things about our fellowship is that we do exceptional clinical training, incorporating technology and interdisciplinary approach. That's a guarantee; that's a given. You're going to get your clinical training. But we shape these well-rounded individuals so that they are capable of wearing all these many hats they need. So when it comes to leadership, big-time training, leading with purpose; business, to understand the business, how to run the business, what is that we do. Right now, we just launched, and actually, with the help of Ryan, I got connected to our entrepreneurial, Entrepreneurship Institute in the school, and I'm running a course for Lean Startup for the students. And we have workshops. We help them understand, find a problem, create a solution, what is your value proposition, and the Lean Startup concept. And they are creating amazing things. And we are conducting like a Shark Tank type of contest at the end, where they are going to present us all their ideas, all their products. And who knows? Maybe from then, they get a sponsor and they create something great. But that's a tiny example. So the leadership skill, the communication skills, even incorporating high-performance habits in their life, I'm very particular about that. Right? And that wellness aspect. We want to be healthy; your mind, your body; and all of that get connected. And that's what we're training. We're training these well-rounded individuals that are going to be the future leaders of the profession; all the heads they have to wear, not just the clinical hat.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's awesome, I love it. And so jumping it to you, Ryan, from your perspective.

Ryan St. Germain:
Dr. Oquendo, obviously, as our leader in front of these students every day, her and her faculty and the amazing job they do, I think she's spot on. Our programs are so differentiated. And these fellowships are so differentiated not necessarily because of the hand skills they're learning. Right? If you're going to be an English major, you can be an English major at a community college, or you can be an English major at Harvard. It's still Shakespeare, right? Like the basics are going to be the basics, but what is that expertise and what is that global knowledge and impact and reach that you can have by going to that institution that is different, that I would argue is better, but that really has that commitment to having those demarcations of difference. And I think the leaning into leadership, the importance of mentorship, the community aspect, both domestically and certainly globally, make us comparable to no other institution of education within the world. And harder to argue, but certainly not within the country. And I think these programs and the opportunities that these students and our fellows are offered are incomparable. And then the compliments continue, because you still have to be then the type of student to take advantage, right? Just us offering the opportunities. Not enough, but identifying, and accepting, and admitting the correct student from the start has to lay that groundwork. Because if they're not self-identifying, either they already know it, or folks like Dr. Oquendo can see it in them. Sometimes, they don't know it yet, but we can draw it out of them and really help them develop into that full person so that they do have a fulfilling career, but that they have a fulfilling life because those are the people like yourself, Dr. Liu, that are able to come back and make an impact. If they don't have that completeness, wholeness of self, then they're not out in the world doing that. And I think that's something we're real proud of.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Well, that's great because there's these challenges when anybody, especially students, when we come out of school, when I say we meaning like my own self when I graduated, we are not so well-versed with startups; we are not so well-versed with entrepreneurship. And what we do is we start learning from the school of hard knocks. Right? Make mistakes, trial and error till you get it right. And sometimes, it's so devastating that we can't even get up. So what you've implemented in this program, I think it's tenfold. So with that being said, what was something that you found in students? Like did you see something in them, or did you hear feedbacks from past students that you wanted to get this implemented, this entrepreneurship, Dr. Oquendo?

Anabella Oquendo:
Okay. Several venues really. One is to see all the great things our alumni was doing. We have such a strong alumni network around the world, and they are becoming they're leaders in their countries. So one is to see the potential of our students, what they were achieving with our training here once they went out to the real world. That was one. And second, as I keep connecting the dots, when it comes to education, and incorporating all this well-rounded type of training and individual, I realized that entrepreneurship is one of them. It's not just being a leader; it's also understanding all these concepts. Even if they just want to open their practice, you know better than anybody, Dr. Liu, you need so much knowledge beyond the preparation of a margin or extracting a tooth, placing an implant. So I think that was the motivation there. And their success is always my success. And the fact that I was a student in the program give me a lot of insight, understanding how they feel, what the program did for me, and all the opportunities, all the doors that open up, and wanting to do the same for them, and feel that responsibility of giving back, I think is the reason why.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it. So let's dive a little bit into the fellowship program. How many different components are there, different specialties in this fellowship?

Anabella Oquendo:
Okay. We have four main programs. The aesthetic program. We have aesthetics focused on the restorative aspect, and aesthetics is the program where we do a lot of treatment planning; is that blueprint what is best for each patient and understanding all the specialties and understanding how we can collaborate to help the patient to get that ideal smile; not just from the beauty side of things, but also function, biology, health, all of that. So that's aesthetics. Then we have oral surgery. They focus more on the surgical aspect of placing implants and other type of surgeries. Then we have operative and digital dentistry. This is also a purely restorative program. And we have all the toys you can imagine in this world. Everything is done digitally, and is general dentistry; and all digital to a point that we are early adopters or of a mojo. Mojo is basically like a digital articulator, so the students can do everything digital from the beginning to the end. And then we have Loop, the Loop Advanced Clinical Fellowship in Implant Dentistry. That program is excellent. And I'm going to tell you why.

Dr. Noel Liu:
It's a great program.

Anabella Oquendo:
Excellent. Because you have both the Stewart, you're doing everything, the surgical part and also your restoring. That's why it's a two-year program. The training is very complete and very intense. And they do a lot of research. I know you mentioned research before, and they go out to different meetings. They present. We do a lot of public speaking in these programs. We teach them the art of storytelling and communication skills. So they spend the whole year learning how to do public speaking. And then we take them out. We expose them in different meetings to present.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That'd be great, because I have one of my interns from our organization that just joined the program as well. And I told her, Just be prepared. She's really introvert, really shy. And I was like, You will change. Just go with the program. And is this true that this is the only program that's two years? The rest of the fellowships are one year, right?

Anabella Oquendo:
Yes, implants is two years. The rest of them is a year program.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Good deal. So how has this fellowship program impacted dentists domestically? I know we keep calling it international. Is this something which, is it for a regular, I call it regular, like local?

Anabella Oquendo:
It's really, I really like, I'm going to say it's really transformative. These programs are transformative. And let me wear for a second my alumni hat. And as I said at the beginning, for me, it was really a transformation. From international student to one of the deans at NYU dentistry, it feels surreal to think of this journey, and I feel so much pride. And when I think about it, it's all about the institution. It's the power of this institution, all the support, all the opportunities, and the doors that open up. So really, I'm telling you this as an alumni based on my own experience. But when I see all the students is transformative. Whether you are domestic or you are international, the clinical training they get is excellent. You know that in our school we see a day thousand or thousand and 100 patients per day, a total of 300,000 patients. So imagine the amount of exposure they get. So the clinical training is top. We also incorporate a lot of technology the top of the top, right? So incorporating technology, always elevating standards. And as I said before, it's a must; that interdisciplinary and comprehensive approach to dentistry. We collaborate and we all learn from each other. But also, as I mentioned, it's not just that; it's creating and shaping these future leaders. That's also very impactful. When you graduate from these programs and you feel comfortable leading your staff, leading your office, interviewing people, communicating and understanding about business, being an entrepreneur, all of that, of course, makes a huge impact. And if you are an international student, that allows you to take all this knowledge and all this innovation back to your country and make a difference and an impact there. And we are so connected as an alumni, that you get support and help no matter where you are. As I said before, our alumni are doing wonderful things. And no matter what year, if you are one generation or the other one, what you do, your graduation was. The minute you connect to alum together, that's powerful. It's a lot of support. No matter where in the world you are. So as an international student, you also are able to bridge, you know, this global evolution and elevation of dentistry and bring all that back to your country and feel supported by all the networks that we can provide and we have all around the world.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So this program is for everybody, like even from United States, from international, they don't have to have a DDS degree. Correct?

Anabella Oquendo:
They do have to have a DD. They have to be dentists.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I mean. DDS from United States, that can be from anywhere in the world.

Anabella Oquendo:
Correct. You are correct. International dentists and domestic dentists, they come together in this program.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Perfect. So, Ryan and Candy, what are you guys doing in terms of exploring the community outside beyond New York? And what is it some of the steps that you guys are doing in terms of getting this program out and making people aware?

Ryan St. Germain:
Great question. And I think, again, to Dr. Oquendo's point and yours, Dr. Liu, you quipped, having met some of our grads and some of them that work with you now from specifically from the program, that their education and the curriculum that they go through puts them, what, 5 to 10 years into their career already for the amount of exposure and expertise. So even if you look at the program just as time condenser. Right? Can I go out and can I learn this in the school of hard knocks and make those mistakes and figure it out through the cases I might have in my practice over ten years? Absolutely. Or can I do it in a very systematized, no-error in it, and have really clean margins and do it in two years? A lot of people appreciate that efficiency to accelerate their career to that point. And so I think that's really what we're talking about when we're talking about the program to people on the domestic or international side, it's one of the best programs that really merges those two together. And I am a big proponent of those two then individuals, right, those two sides of the coin just make each other better, because their own educational experiences and clinical experiences have differed a little bit. I came from Spain and I learned it this way, and I had a faculty member mentor who really supported this approach. Okay, well, I learned it. And how does that come together? How do we find what the best practice is? And it's because there's more than one opinion at the table. And that diversity of thought I think, really improves it. For us, having identified folks like yourself for two of the programs, it really just added fuel to the fire, right? It's already a great program. And then we throw some jet fuel on there and can take it to new heights, which is great. And so we look for people that are interested in doing the program, and we look for people that maybe have done the program or can just appreciate what it is and support their educational experience, be it through funding for these students to go out and do more of that research, do more of that travel, or calling what it is, it's not inexpensive to do. It's not an inexpensive educational product to offer. So offsetting those costs this time may be particularly on the international side, to allow those folks to come have kind of the best educational experience they can, and lower that economic hurdle a little bit for them. You would agree, Candy?

Candy Tobar:
The only thing I would add to that, spot on, as always, Ryan, but I would say one of the reasons why I think we're very impassioned to speak about these programs, obviously, we have great leaders really running the ship, such as Dr. Oquendo and all of the directors and all of, some of the leaders that have done the program in the past, and just frankly, don't want to leave. That's the one thing that I've noticed about these programs is the people that you're meeting. I think that, I'm going to take it more to the social side of things. I'm not a dentist, like you guys are, but I see the effect that it has socially on these participants, these fellows that come. And every single one of them has noted, yes, it will transform you in a clinical way, but they have noted that they have met their friends for life, that they would have never had the opportunity to meet another dentist from Mexico, from Spain, from Italy, all while doing it at the same time. You're gaining these international friends for life. They have noted that this fellowship not just transformed them on the clinical side, but as a person giving them life experience, being able to live in New York City, they tell me that they will literally never forget this time in their life, and that if they could do it back to back, they would, because they absolutely fell in love with the entire experience. So yes, to what Ryan is saying, absolutely. We're impassioned to reach out because there's such great programs and they're transformative. But I think if we didn't see such a positive review from each person doing the program, we wouldn't do that so easily. It's easy for us to reach out to people and say, Hey, have you learned about this fellowship that NYU is doing? This is a really fun thing for you to consider doing 3 or 4 years out from school. Maybe you're just turning the patient, every patient wheel and you know you need a revamp. You need a new, fresh experience. I think this is a really great opportunity for domestic and international dentists to really rejuvenate their interest in dentistry, gain international friendships, and really just impact their entire lives here, forward. That people have noted that they will never regret doing this program. And so reaching out with such a positive note, we wouldn't have been able to do that if it wasn't such a great experience for them. So that's the only thing I would add is that everybody is absolutely in love with this program.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So I can definitely attest to that, because last week when we had The Midwinter in Chicago, I think one of the fellows from the implant program, he hit me up and he's like, Hey, doc, I'm going to be in Chicago along with us. There are about ten other people, And we are from the athletic program and from the implant program. So I was like, What are you guys doing here? Then he was like, Oh, we're just doing a presentation at the Swiss hotel or something. And they wanted to meet up, but unfortunately I couldn't meet up with them because I was in Tennessee doing our grand opening at that time. So the good part was we had one of the fellows that was actually working with us in our Chicago location, they all met up. And like you said, Candy, like friendship, the bonding. I mean, these guys just went out that night. They met up, and it was, they had a fun time and great time. And that's something to say because in those two years, they just get that bonding with each other, right? And they don't want to leave, like you said. So I can definitely attest to that. There were like, all ten of them, they showed up, and they all had a good time in Chicago. So one other thing from this program, one of our associates is from the implant program too, the good side effect is after completion of two years in this program, they are allowed to apply for licensure in about 14 states, and that has opened opportunities and opened up doors for many of them who are actually contemplating like, Hey, should I do the advanced standing? Should I go to another school? Should I do a restorative at UCLA, or should I do this? And I've noticed, like many of the people who are actually passionate about implants, to go with this program. So the good part is we can get the license. And the better part is, once we get licensed in 1 or 2 states, automatically, they open up more doors for other states. And then after five years, they open up doors for almost every state. So I think this is a really good side effect, I would call it, out of this fellowship program. I'm not sure if you guys were aware of it or not, but, you know, just something I wanted to share.

Candy Tobar:
Opening doors is the name of the game. And if this program not just gave you this invaluable lesson and clinical training, but it's also opening doors for you thereafter, I don't see how much more better it could get than that.

Dr. Noel Liu:
100%. It's an opportunity, right? So we talked about this program here. What is your ambition? What is your goal there, Dr. Oquendo, specifically for your, what's your vision of this fellowship program as in the next one year, in the next five years?

Anabella Oquendo:
Okay. I want to really keep working on connecting the dots. Right? There is one, in particular, that I think is going to be my next fight, and is bringing the mouth back into the body, right? We need to stop looking at ourselves as teeth doctors, but more like oral health physician,s feeling empowered and empowering our students to educate the patients about nutrition, sleep quality, airway, inflammation in the mouth, the correlation of that inflammation and the microbiome with systemic disease like cardiovascular disease, diabetes. ..., we need to bring the mouth back into the body, right? And empower people. And instead of being or being part of a reactive model, more of an inclusive collaboration and holistic approach, where we work with other health care providers to elevate the health of our patients, the whole well-being; we need to be part of that. So that's one of the dots. The second dot I want to keep connecting, as I mentioned, the fact that as dentists, we are, is not just about being a clinician. It's a big deal. It's part, of course, what we need to train students on. But that leadership aspect, that well-rounded individual, keep working on it. I want to keep crafting my experiences, exceptional experiences for them to really incorporate the high-performance habits, all of that in their life, to have a balanced life. It's not just the hard skills; it's the soft skills as well. So, I want to keep connecting the dots in that area. And the third one, I would say technology is rapid. It's accelerated. And I want to embrace technology. And we understand that it's here to help us to be more efficient, to be more predictable. But it's never going to replace the human, right, and the doctor. It's just helping us elevate what we do, and we have to embrace it. We have to understand it. And it's not here to help the ones that are not good at understanding the fundamentals. It's just here to help the ones that are doing the homework and understand the fundamentals. There is a misconception there. Some people say, Oh, technology will get it done for me. No, that's not how it works. So that will be my third, let's say ambition, let's call it ambition, is to continue to incorporate technology and understand how technology AI is here to help us elevate the industry and elevate the life of our students and our patients.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You know, you're so true because a lot of people are actually afraid of AI that's going to replace them. The actual war is not going to be replacement; that's going to be who can use them and utilize them and who's going to be good at using them. So I think that's where the whole game will be. And I love the fact that you said embrace technology, because this is one of those aspects where I feel like if you are not caught up with technology and with the current dynamics of where we're heading in terms of like digital dentistry, we're going to be left behind. And that's the honest truth. So I love that from the clinical side hear from you. The same question for Ryan. I know you have, you wear a lot of hats in the college, right? From the fellowship aspectm, what is your vision for the next one year and the next five years; from the back-end stage, like from the relationship side?

Ryan St. Germain:
Sure, a lot of our role is then support, right? Because we take our cues from Dr. Oquendo and her team and her faculty, and what do we need. And that trickles bottom up. What do the students need, right? What are they identifying on there. So I think if Candy and I had a dream wish list for the next 1 to 5 years, we have very happily named two of the fellowships. We'd love to see a champion come in for the other two. And that would be the Digital Dentistry Advanced Clinical Fellow as well as the oral surgery one. And then for me, the wonderful exclamation point on it. So great. We've named those two. Let's say we name one in the next year. I'll put the other one before the next fifth. I really think the economic barrier and hurdle, specifically for international. Now you could argue the domestic pay the same tuition. So it's not easy for them either. But the economics are really there. Right? Like you can make an informed decision to say, I'm going to increase my compensation and what I'll be earning in a much quicker way. But how can we attract those students that we know would make wonderfully leveraged ripple effect impact in their own communities, bringing these skills and talents back to them, wherever that might be from? And how can we get them here and remove that barrier to entry? What sort of endowed funding can we put into place to say one student a year will be able to take from X community or Y region and really put them in? So instead of having a brain drain and an exodus out of those communities, how many other countries and communities can we help and really plant an NYU flag? I think we have a little bit of responsibility. If we're going to be the best product around, we shouldn't be an unattainable goal for anyone. And we should really work on creating pathways for people to get there. And I think that's something people can get behind.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it. Love it. You're right. Because, and I think you are absolutely right, because for many of the international students, it's all of this economy of scale. And like you said, it's not inexpensive. So how do they go about doing it? So I think one of the sort of help would be like the scholarship programs, right? And what else does a school do in terms of getting these students in with financial. Is there any other pathway for them, like let's say, student loans or any of that other stuff which they can look into?

Ryan St. Germain:
For domestic students, yes. Banks are very willing to lend to dental students. Not that dental students are always so enamored with the idea of taking those loans, but banks are very willing to do so because the default rates are basically zero, which at least is a little bit of solace for those dental students taking on those loans because they are paying them back, or the banks wouldn't be so willing to lend. For international, that's not really the case. There aren't what we think of as traditional student loans available to them in the same way; those are really personal or private loans. Obviously, those carry different interest rates. So the economics just really change for them. So the importance of scholarship availability is then increased for them. And I think the larger and more successful our program, the easier it is for us to be in a position to do so. You need to do good by doing well. And I think that's part of one of your own lectures. When you come in and talk to our d-1s, our success then allows us the flexibility to offer that. So I think we're on a mission to be more and most successful in those areas. But I think part of that is that philanthropic aspect to it, both from external, where we're looking for the support and internally, is our mission to then give that.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Excellent, excellent. I think there are many options where people can explore. It's just a matter of making up their mind and getting into the program. And once when you decide, I always believe, once we decide, good things happen. So last question for you, Dr. Oquendo. You are a very busy woman, right? And you do a lot. How do you balance your personal life, work life? What are some of the good and the bad and some of the challenges that you face? And I did learn that you are a mother of a twins. So that's awesome, I love it. How do you take work life and what do you how do you juggle those two, as a mom and as a professional?

Anabella Oquendo:
It's definitely a difficult one. Such an important one. Right? You need a balance. We definitely need a balance, and we have to be intentional about it. That's the trick. You have to be intentional, right? And it's not just about time management. It's about mind management. And I'm a big believer of high-performance habits because they do help you manage a little bit your all the responsibilities. And I'm passionate not just about my work. And of course, I dedicate a lot of my time to improving the programs and education. But it's also about, as you said, my daughters. They are my biggest source of inspiration. And I like to make sure that I'm a role model for them and I allocate enough time, quality time. It's not just time. That's another trick, right? It's not just allocating the time; it's that quality time. You have to be present. You have to be there for them and support them. And that's, honestly, what keeps me grounded, right? What give me purpose is that guidance, that role model to my daughters. And you need to have also time for your habits, your friends. And I love reading. I love self-growth. So I allocate also. I'm very systematic. I think you have to be systematic. Some of my friends joke and say, Your life is like a schedule, but it's the only way that you could be that efficient, right, and that intentional. So I allocate time also for reading. That's one of my hobbies. I love reading, but reading for learning self growth. I read a lot about leader leadership. I always aspire to be the best leader I can for my teams, my admin teams here, my faculties, and my students. So I bring that knowledge. And that reading and that hobby of learning and self-growth give me ideas to craft new experiences for the program and the students, and also wellness. I'm afraid with wellness, and I don't see it as a homework. I approach it with curiosity and joy, with trying to have a balanced mind and a balanced body. And again, being intentional: have a schedule. This is when I'm exercising, and I'm intentional about what I eat, and trying to teach all of that to my daughters. And last, I need to have time to travel. It's part of the deal. Traveling is a hobby for me. Being exposed to new cultures and a different perspective; it gives you so much in building those memories. So I advocate traveling for family trips; friends, to see my friends; and also for work. I do travel a lot in this role. Yeah. I think you need to be systematic. Yeah. You know how hard it is, right?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Absolutely. I'll give it to you for doing that. And also, the other lady in the room is Candy. I mean, she's also got a little one, just about my littlest, almost the same age as my little one. Ryan, sorry, guys. In this room, they don't really have any empathy for us. Okay, so. And one thing I love about Candy is: when she goes out with her family and she's spending family time or personal time, she's also making relationships. And that is something which I see in you too, Dr. Oquendo. You always have this work, but then you're also thinking about family. But then when you're in family, you're also thinking about work. So you're like doing, juggling both. And I see that even with my wife. So I've noticed that this is, I think, the female power. But for us guys, we are always just focused on one thing, right? We're just at work and we're at work. At home, we're at home, but we are also doing work. So we don't balance life as good. I don't know about you, Ryan. That's my experience. If you have something to say, definitely chime in.

Ryan St. Germain:
No, but my wife is better at everything than I am. Hard stop. There's not enough I have to make a qualifier for that.

Candy Tobar:
You trained her well.

Ryan St. Germain:
She's better at life than I am. But without her, I would be very poor at it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, absolutely.

Candy Tobar:
I think of the videos that have gone viral that me and my husband constantly, that's our love language, is sending each other reels and funny little stories that we find online that are so pertinent. And there's one circling around about the differences between mentally a man and a woman. And here's what a woman thinks about all-day long. While she might be sitting there on her phone, but she's scheduling birthday parties; I have to order this; I have to take; I have to book this appointment; I have to. It's constantly, wheels are turning. You're always thinking about what needs to be done next. And then they cut to a man on what they're thinking. And he's thinking about, like, a sandwich, right? Nothing else. And that's like the difference. Like it's probably a little too vague, but I laugh at the differences between the two because we're just hardwired different. We do constantly, our mental load, it's a constant wheel of what needs to get done, and I think that's why men and women, we tend to, you know, be pretty balanced and we both accomplish different things. It's not that your wife is better, Ryan; it's just that we operate in different ways, and without each other, we wouldn't be balanced out, right?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, 100%. I just wanted to shine this a little bit on the human aspect, because it takes successful people in their personal lives to run successful professional lives. And since we are talking about this program, this whole gamut, it all comes as one package. It's not like one or the other. So, if someone is really successful at their personal life, and that's how we look at our team members. If you got your personal life in order, your work life is in order. And that's one of the things that I carry around that kind of goes across goes vice versa. So I love the fact that how you guys mingle around and what do you do to juggle day-to-day activities because it's a lot. It's a lot, especially with the university and the programs and everything that you do. So I really appreciate you guys for doing all that. So that's huge.

Candy Tobar:
I think we all love what we do, and I think that perpetuates the success. We're really passionate about holding our own within our own roles. I think we all play different roles.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Exactly.

Candy Tobar:
And you're right, I love what you just said about balancing your personal life. I think, yeah, you have to set a good foundation in every aspect of your life. If not, it bleeds into the other. Right? You can tell when someone's not happy in their home life. You can tell when somebody's not happy in their career achievements. Bleeds into each other and you bring it home with you or vice versa. So yeah, I think it's your due diligence in life is to organise your family, your schedule. I love what Anabella said about your mental wellness, your physical wellness. Always find time for yourself. And then it inspires people around you. My daughter, who is four, she says, like, Mommy, go into exercise. Because she knows that's part of it, should be part of life. You should learn that a working mother, a mother who takes care of herself physically and mentally, all of that is part of the deal. And I think one thing we're all very good at in this room is covering every single base so that the people around us are lifted by us.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Absolutely. So before we land the plane here, Ryan, how does someone learn more about the program? Is there a way they can shadow someone, or maybe, like, just have a conversation with someone just to see what's inside of each of those four fellowship programs?

Ryan St. Germain:
For interested applicants, that's really a question for Dr. Oquendo. And she has a fantastic team over there in the clinic that I'm sure would be happy to hear from them, but I don't want to assign who for which if she'd like to take that.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Perfect.

Anabella Oquendo:
Okay, so yeah, the team is fantastic really. At the end of the day, we all know it's all about the people, right? And everybody is so welcoming. So it's super easy to reach out to us. I would say one is our website, the school website, it's listed under Education: Advanced Clinical Fellowships. We also do a lot of Instagram, so they can follow us on Instagram. And even my personal Instagram, I'm happy to respond to any messages and guide you through the right person. And we do shadows. So for students that want to see it before even think really applying, we let them come, look at what we do, meet with the other fellows, talk to them, talk to the faculty. So that we also do. And it's very helpful for them to make a decision and to understand what they are getting into it. So I would say Instagram is wonderful. Our website is fantastic. We are on there, listed under Education, and any member of my team will be so helpful and will guide anybody super well. And it's super easy.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I'll add one more.

Anabella Oquendo:
Yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Pass aluminized.

Ryan St. Germain:
We have no better advertising out in the world, right?

Dr. Noel Liu:
You have all the advertisement.

Anabella Oquendo:
The ambassadors of the program.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Ambassadors. I like that. Ambassadors.

Anabella Oquendo:
Yes. Any alumni will be able to talk about the programs and guide anybody through the process of application and what to expect; a day in the life of a student here.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And with that being said, we are going to be doing a shoot one day coming in May, and we'll be doing a shoot about a fellow, right, from the Liu implants, and we're going to be following them and doing exactly what is a day look like for them, from morning till the time they check out, and they go to their homes.

Anabella Oquendo:
Yeah. It's going to be fantastic. Very visual.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I'm really looking forward.

Anabella Oquendo:
Yes. Me too.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Team, any last minute statements?

Anabella Oquendo:
I just want to say thank you for having us. Thank you so much.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, actually, thank you guys for coming on. It was a work to get all of us together. Right?? So thank you. Appreciate it.

Ryan St. Germain:
It is our pleasure, and we can't wait to see you. And what, just like six weeks or so?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Six weeks? Absolutely.

Ryan St. Germain:
Day in the life is going to be fantastic. And so I hope your viewers and such and listeners are really going to enjoy that too, because seeing behind the curtain is always an interesting way to go about it, and really seeing the rigor that these folks go through and the dedication and passion they have, again, they are the best advertising we could do. So you want people to be interested in the program, you want people to contribute to the program to show them who's in it. We can't tell their story nearly as well, and every one of them is just really incredibly impressive. So thank you for the opportunity to get that word out there.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Well, thank you very much. We're going to land the plane here. Again, NYU College of Dentistry. Their website has all the information about the fellowship program as well as the regular DDS program. So, anytime anyone have any questions, feel free to reach out. We're going to land the plane here. And thank you very much, guys, for coming on. It was a pure pleasure and an honor to have you guys all at the same time.

Anabella Oquendo:
Likewise.

Ryan St. Germain:
Thank you.

Candy Tobar:
Thank you.

Dr. Noel Liu:
All righty.

Candy Tobar:
Take care, guys.

Dr. Noel Liu:
All right. Take care.

Candy Tobar:
Thank you so much.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Take care, doc. I'll see you soon.

Candy Tobar:
I'll see you soon. Bye bye.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning into the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NOELLIUDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Dr. Anabella Oquendo:

Dr. Anabella Oquendo Parilli is the Assistant Dean for International Programs and Program Director of the Advanced Program for International Dentists in Esthetic Dentistry at New York University College of Dentistry. A passionate educator and clinician, Dr. Oquendo is dedicated to shaping the next generation of dental leaders and advancing the field of esthetic dentistry. As Assistant Dean since December 2022, she oversees international programs, working to elevate the educational experience for students from around the world and fostering global outreach initiatives. She has been the Program Director of the Advanced Program for International Dentists since 2014, where she implements interdisciplinary and comprehensive training, emphasizing the importance of blending clinical skills with leadership, business acumen, and holistic health perspectives.

Dr. Oquendo also maintains a practice at NYU Dental Faculty Practice, specializing in esthetic and interdisciplinary dentistry. She earned her dental degree from Universidad Central de Venezuela and completed the Advanced Program for International Dentists in Esthetic Dentistry at NYU. Driven by a commitment to excellence and a vision for the future of dentistry, Dr. Oquendo is a highly respected leader in the field, actively involved in transforming lives through education and patient care. She is passionate about bringing the mouth back into the body and promoting a comprehensive approach to health.

About Candy Tobar:

Candy Tobar is a dedicated professional in Development and Alumni Relations at New York University – College of Dentistry, where she has served since March 2020. In her role as a Major Gifts Officer, Candy contributes her strong work ethic, interpersonal skills, and commitment to results to connect with alumni and foster philanthropic support for the College’s mission. She helps to cultivate relationships, playing a vital role in advancing key initiatives, including the successful Advanced Clinical Fellowship programs highlighted in the Secure Dental Podcast.

Prior to joining NYU, Candy honed her skills in diverse roles across the fashion and retail industries. She served as an Account Executive at Kenneth Cole Productions and a Senior Merchandise Analyst at Steve Madden. At Global Brands Group (Calvin Klein), Candy managed a significant sales portfolio and partnered with major retail stores to optimize sales success. Her earlier experience in sales administration at The Frye Company equipped her with a strong foundation in customer relations and operational efficiency. Candy holds a Bachelor’s degree in Psychology and Spanish from SUNY Albany. Known for her collaborative spirit and commitment to excellence, Candy is passionate about fostering community and driving positive outcomes.


About Ryan St. Germain:

Ryan St. Germain is the Executive Director of Development & Alumni Relations at NYU College of Dentistry, where he has dedicated over eight years to fostering philanthropic support and strengthening community engagement. In this role since December 2019, Ryan has led efforts to cultivate relationships with alumni, donors, and friends of the College, securing vital resources for cutting-edge research, innovative educational programs (including the Advanced Clinical Fellowship programs), and impactful global outreach initiatives. He plays a key role in connecting passionate individuals with opportunities to advance dental education and improve oral health outcomes worldwide.

Prior to his current position, Ryan served as Senior Director of Development & Alumni Relations at NYU College of Dentistry. He also held development roles at Northwestern University and Fordham University, demonstrating a consistent commitment to advancing educational institutions. Ryan holds an MBA in Finance and a Master’s degree in Sociology from Fordham University, complemented by a BA in Sociology, further solidifying his expertise in strategic philanthropy and community building. Driven by a passion for education and a talent for fostering meaningful connections, Ryan is dedicated to empowering the next generation of dental professionals.


Things You’ll Learn:

  • Fellowship programs offer exceptional clinical training and incorporate technology to elevate the standards of practice, as well as an interdisciplinary approach to ensure a comprehensive understanding of dentistry. These advanced programs shape well-rounded individuals with leadership skills, business acumen, and high-performance habits, enabling them to lead with purpose and excel in their careers.
  • The strength of NYU’s fellowship lies in its ability to merge international and domestic perspectives, enriching the educational experience and creating a more diverse understanding of best practices. This collaborative environment fosters friendships and broadens the participants’ horizons, ensuring the fellows have friends for life and international friendships.
  • Entrepreneurship education is vital for dentists, and fellows should learn to address the business aspects of running a practice. By understanding problem-solving, value propositions, and lean startup principles, fellows can innovate and create their path within the field.
  • There is a growing importance of integrating oral health with overall health, empowering dentists to educate patients about nutrition, sleep quality, and the systemic connections of oral inflammation. This holistic approach necessitates collaboration with other healthcare providers to elevate the well-being of patients.
  • Scholarship programs and philanthropic efforts are essential to break down economic barriers and attract diverse talent to dental fellowship programs. Financial assistance enables outstanding students from around the world to pursue advanced education, thereby expanding the global reach and influence of these programs.

Resources:

  • Connect with and follow Anabella Oquendo on LinkedIn and Instagram.
  • Follow and connect with Candy Tobar on LinkedIn and Instagram.
  • Connect with and follow Ryan St. Germain on LinkedIn
  • Listen to Candy’s and Ryan’s previous interview on our podcast here.
  • Learn about the Advanced Clinical Fellowship Programs on their website and Instagram.
  • Check out the Liu Advanced Clinical Fellowship in Implant Dentistry on Instagram.
  • Find out more about the Apa Advanced Clinical Fellowship in Aesthetic Dentistry on Instagram.
Categories
Podcast

The Business of Selling Smiles: A New Take on Dental Practice Sales

Elijah Desmond

Summary:

What if selling your dental practice could be an exciting, high-energy experience instead of a stressful process?

In this episode of the Secure Dental Podcast, Elijah Desmond, Co-Founder of Dental Pitch Brokerage, Founder of Smiles at Sea and The Dental Festival, and a best-selling author, shares his fearless mindset, emphasizing that failure is not a deterrent but a learning experience. He discusses his unique approach to dental practice brokerage, where he creates high-energy events that connect sellers with qualified buyers in an engaging setting. He highlights common mistakes sellers make, such as waiting too long to sell, not understanding their financial goals, and limiting growth by operating in small spaces. Finally, Elijah defines success as achieving balance across health, family, and finances, stressing the importance of adaptability in maintaining that harmony.

Tune in to learn about the future of dental practice sales, the biggest mistakes to avoid, and how to create a winning exit strategy! 

 

Secure Dental-Elijah Desmond: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental-Elijah Desmond: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
All righty, welcome to another episode of our Secure Dental podcast, where we bring in many different talents from both inside and outside our dental industry. Today, we have a very special guest, Elijah Desmond. Many of you guys probably know him through DJ Smiles, his cruise ship that he does all the CEs with various talents that he does with, collaborating and getting everybody together. So Elijah is going to be sharing some insights about what he does, how he got started. And, like always, this is your host, Dr Noel Liu. Elijah, my man. Welcome. Thanks for coming in.

Elijah Desmond:
Hey, thank you for having me. I appreciate being here.

Dr. Noel Liu:
All right, Elijah, let's start with a brief intro for some of the guys who's been living under a rock and don't know who you are.

Elijah Desmond:
Hey, listen, I actually love when people don't know who I am. That means I still have more work to do. I'm only 37 years old. I'm not Gordon Christiansen's age yet, so I don't ever expect everybody to know who I am. But for those of you who don't know me, I first want to start off by saying I am a proud father of a five-year-old and ten-year-old little girl, and married to a beautiful woman who supports all of my dreams. I live down here in South Florida. All my businesses are nationwide. I take things that work outside of our industry and that are already established, and they look really, really fun. I do it in our industry. I graduated from the Ohio State University in 2009. Dang. Time flies. I moved to the beautiful islands of Hawaii when I graduated from Ohio State and found out very fast that I was not employable, so my hygiene career ended real fast. I have a knack for business, and I didn't like to be trapped inside of a building, let alone a three-walled clinical laboratory. I also have the ability to, like, make money out of thin air, and to me, it didn't make any sense at all to be taking home $300 or $400 a day when I was making my dentist $3,000 to $10,000 a day, whether it's doing Invisalign cases or doing this high producer. Anyhow, I got my run in business there in Hawaii, and by 2012, I had made my first exit. Fast forward to today. I've started just over 20 businesses. I've successfully failed at seven of them, and I have successfully made seven exits, closed a couple businesses because they weren't passion projects. I only have two businesses left, and I'm a motivational speaker for kids. I have a passion for saving little kids' lives from the stage, specifically high school kids. Nothing dental related, but get off the stage. And when a kid tells you that they were going to take their life but they didn't because of the words you said from the stage is something very powerful. So that's me at a high-level, two-minute intro of who I am, what I stand for, and I'm happy to be on the podcast. I'm grateful for you. Thank you.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks, man, I appreciate it. Your dental hygiene career. Let's dive a little bit into that. What made you decide and go into dental hygiene? You know, what were you thinking at that time?

Elijah Desmond:
Yeah, I was at the time. Well, first off, my uncle's a dentist. My aunt's a hygienist. My mom practice as an office manager for 20 years, and I was raised on a really big farm. I was used to shoveling. Yeah, yeah. Shoveling pig, I'll use the word pig crap, and baling hay. Working really, really, really, really hard. And, I mean, I'm a hard worker. Period. This is how I am. It's in my blood. However, while doing that hard work as a kid, I would tell myself, when I grow up, I'm going to do something in air conditioning, and the only time that I am going to use, like my muscles and sweat, is when I go to the gym and when I run or play a sport. But I'm done working hard like that, and so I use my brain to make my living. Ultimately, I don't work hard like that anymore. That's how I got into dentistry. I got a full-ride scholarship to Ohio State University.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Nice.

Elijah Desmond:
And the story there is pretty unique. I never read a book in my life. I have a learning disability. Actually, I can read you a book out loud, but what I can't do is remember anything that I read. So, I managed to get around through school other ways. I believe in tutors. Personally, I don't think it's a negative thing. I think it's very positive. It means you care enough to actually focus and get that good grade. Teachers really care, and even educators that are in dentistry right, really care. It doesn't matter if it's a college instructor or high school instructor. You really care. So I got good at asking for help and I got great grades at a 4.0 GPA. I tested in a college at at 15 years old full time, and here we are today. Still have never read a book. And it started audiobooks though.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, man, I love audiobooks, and that's how I pass my time. Audiobooks and podcasts. It's one of those things where I would go back and I would listen to my guests exactly what kind of nuggets they dropped, and I think that's a huge way to do it. Otherwise, me, like you hate reading books. If you tell me to open up a book and start reading from chapter one till the end of the page. I mean, it's not happening. So I feel you, man, I feel you. Yes. So tell me, this year, right, you got involved in dentistry through dental hygiene, and then after that, you said your career has just stopped. What was the transition like? What were you doing after that?

Elijah Desmond:
Yeah. So when I actually stopped practicing altogether. Well, first I started at staffing agency. That was my first business. It was called Hawaii Smiles Dental Temping Agency, and I then started temping and I would go through all the all the islands and I practiced a different dental practices. I had about 80 dentist hygienist assistants working with me through the temp agency.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Wow.

Elijah Desmond:
And then in 2012, I moved to Las Vegas. That was the official transition. I wasn't temping any longer. I'd moved to Vegas and I would go back to Hawaii once a month. I was consulting dental practices at the dental at the time, and so that's what allowed me. After I made I sold the staffing agency, number one. Number two, I was consulting dental practices all over the country. And that was really the big transition for me to completely stop and get out. I just felt like claustrophobic when I was practicing clinically. I just felt like my chest would get tight. I would look at the clock and I'm like, oh my gosh, it is not 11:00. Lunch break isn't till one like it feels like it's like should be 7 p.m. already. It is. Personally, it was not for me. I love my clinical providers, but I just couldn't be one of them.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You're such a honest, I mean, this person and this character that you realize that this is not for you, and you realize it way, way sooner than most of our colleagues. And I remember you saying that at the podcast about your, how your career started and how it ended right away because you made that choice, I love it. So today, what's happening today? Like once when you got to the dental consulting company and you started that, how did you get from there to where you are today?

Elijah Desmond:
Yeah. I mean, I just, I'm going to make it short. I've learned how to make long stories really short. So, I've started just over 20 businesses. And I actually condensed that into a book. When I was at 13 businesses, I made a book Serial Entrepreneur From Startup to Success. It's in the book I made in 18. But how did I get from there to there? Well, I think the number one thing is, is I mastered helping people And what do I mean by helping people? Be very specific because anybody can say they help people. I went out and I created Facebook groups, and I created Facebook groups because I was tired of answering the same email over and over and over again. And so I said, you know what? I'm going to create a Facebook group so I can respond to this one burning question one time, and hopefully, I reach hundreds of people. Sure. Now, fast forward to today, my groups have one group has 26,000. I have another group of 15,000, another one with 6000. A ton of special groups with like 1000 each. And I basically, I've been helping. I've been serving our industry and helping people get on the stage, helping people speak and spread their message. I create influencers; I create dental influencers. I give them the shortcuts to go and help other people. And I put other people before me for mentorship from helping. Biggest thing is, is telling people how I fell on my face. I am not afraid to say I failed. A lot of people are trying to be, you know, Mr. Big Shot, you did this, that really nobody's going to be sitting here clapping authentically for somebody who's did it all. People will clap authentically if you failed on your face and you tell them and you explain the way you got up from your face, right? That's when people will really clap because then you're relatable and you're being real and authentic. And that's what I've always stood for. And so from then when I say then, I mean from when I lived in Hawaii till now, where I live in Florida, I've focused so much on building people by the masses, not by a couple people here or there, not just one-on-one phone calls. Not that I don't do that, but literally through helping thousands and thousands of people through mass communication, like you have a podcast, you're helping thousands of people. My original way of helping everybody was specifically through Facebook and through magazines and just writing articles, writing books, and pouring my heart into people. And now I'm to the point, like even to today, my bank account is small and a small bank account compared to many people, right? But my relationship bank account is bigger than most people in the entire room put together because I have put that much time into growing everybody else. And I really did that because I felt it was hard for me at first coming up in our industry. So because I know how it feels to be the underdog, I don't want anybody ever to feel alone. So, I constantly help and serve. So now I'm to the point in my career to where I can tap that bank account at any time and blow up any business, because I spent the time in the trenches working for free, serving, mentoring, helping people, and that's really how I got from there to here today.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You know, you just nailed it in the head. A lot of times, people are looking, how do I get something out of for nothing? And in your case, it's like, hey, how do I provide value? How do I provide something which the other person can use? And that's use value that you're providing? Love it, man, love it. So I want to touch you a little bit based on failures. Many people are afraid of failures. What's your take on it and how would you say that has helped you grow?

Elijah Desmond:
Yeah. First off, I think a lot of people are afraid to fail. Start with that. I'm not afraid to fail. If I believe in something, I will do something until I'm sure that I have failed at it. Here's what's so crazy. I have failed so many times that I don't have to fail that many times now. Now, do I still fail today? Of course, I do normal, but I fail so much less than I used to. But here's what I've done. I've picked up all of those failure pieces, and I've actually put them together, and this way, I don't have to fail anymore, and I can help. I've helped people. So like, I'm able to help so many people because I wasn't afraid to fail. So, I failed a whole bunch of times.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Wow.

Elijah Desmond:
Right. And so I believe that it's not really true failure. It's just part of the process. Any successful person has failed multiple times. I have added all of the failures I've got, put it together, and now I can help people with all those failures, and I'm more prone to succeed because I have failed, and I failed fast. I didn't tiptoe around. I don't like kind of do stuff. If I say I'm doing something, I am going all in. I'm not tiptoeing around because you don't really know the end result. If you just, you kind of went, I don't kind of do anything. I play full out with everything I did. So when I fail, it truly is a fail because it was impossible. And since I made that happen, I then can tell the next person turn left, don't turn right. And here's the reason why you don't turn left. There's an alligator on your left. There's a huge cliff like 50ft up there. If you don't jump right before you hit the cliff, you will not make it to the like. I can give you specific examples instead of just saying like, don't turn left. So, those failures have made me successful.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, if you look at an endeavor right now and you have something that you want to tackle, how are you taking it? Like you go like, hey, you know what? I fail so many times in the past now, I'm not going to be feeling that much, but you still have that in the back of your mind that, hey, you know, something might happen, and if it happens, then what?

Elijah Desmond:
So I think your specific question is how do I approach something new so I don't fail? Is that pretty or.

Dr. Noel Liu:
How do you approach something new that you don't fail? But you know in the back of your mind that you may fail still? Yeah, I actually is that going to stop you.

Elijah Desmond:
From, I don't know, in the back of the mind, I'm going to fail. If I think I'm going to fail, I will. I'm not going to do it. I don't think I'm going to fail. I know I'm going to win, but I do know that I have the cushion in my head to where if I do fail, then I'm not like paralyzed and depressed and like, oh, it was the end of the world. Know this failed. No big deal. Get back up, do it again. And the reason that I don't fail as much is not because I know at all. There's a lot of things that I have gathered, a lot of wisdom that I've gathered along the journey to get to where I'm at today, to make it to where ultimately I know way more. But if I go into an area that I'm not the expert in. Okay. I will find the expert, and I will pay for the shortcut.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it.

Elijah Desmond:
I'll bend time by going and finding somebody who has been there. I'll find it. Me? In that space, I will pay them whatever it takes to make it to where I fail fast, or I succeed fast. But I'm not afraid of the fail part. If I thought I was going to fail, I wouldn't have did it. Why in the world would I could do anything in the world? Why am I gonna do something where I think I'm going to fail? There's no chance of me failing if failing is not an option. However, when I get to it, and I fail, okay, I failed. That's fine. But I gave it my. It was impossible. I gave it my all. I have no regrets. It was not something in my mind like, oh, sure, I think I'm gonna fail. This might not work. No. I'm winning.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You know, you nailed it right there with the Law of Attraction. And it's like, if you're going to think you're going to fail, you're failing for sure. I mean, I think you probably believe that as well. And if you think you're going to win, absolutely, there's no chance you're going to fail because there is no way out.

Elijah Desmond:
Yes, exactly. I mean, perfect example. It's a life example, not like a dental example or a business, but I have been working on my fitness for a while and I told myself I got up one morning. I hadn't run in like a week and a half, and I basically said, I am not going to run this short path. I'm going to run the long path today, and I'm going to get the best time that I have got in the entire year. I went out that day, that morning. This is like a week ago. I got up, I had a perfect attitude on I'm going to win today. I went out, I ran the long path, and by two seconds, beat my best time that I've had all year. It is a mindset thing, and I believe in the law of attraction to a certain point. I think that's part of it. Believing you can. Seeing that you can have this vision. But at the end of the day, it takes action. I had to lift my feet up. I had to make sure that I was not getting in my brain, and oh my God, I'm tired. I had to actually take action and do it. And so mindset is a big part of it. But actually taking the action steps is the other part of the law of attraction that I feel is a little bit missing from the whole concept of attraction.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Massive action. All right, Elijah. Let's switch gears a little bit. Man, let's dive a little bit into your current business that you're doing with acquisitions. You help dental practices sell and buy.

Elijah Desmond:
Yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
What are some of the biggest challenges that you see from a buying side and from a selling side, or mistakes you may call it?

Elijah Desmond:
Yes. Well, so first off let me give some background to I think it's important to have the background to the challenges and I'll come right back. So first I do own a brokerage firm and it is a sell side brokerage firm, however.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Yep. Okay.

Elijah Desmond:
However, we have a very good relationship with all of our buyers. We have 55 buyers in our network. Why do we have a good relationship? We call balls and strikes. We say exactly what it is. We know all of our data. We know all the numbers. Since we do a quality of earnings, we can defend the seller's EBITDA on their behalf. So we're sell side broker, but we have a very good reputation because we call it like it is. Here is the math. Are you going to pay 4 or 5 or 6 or 8 times? Whatever, it may be multiple, but that's the quick background on sell side. Next, I don't know if this is a video podcast or is it a live podcast, but for those that is an audio podcast, I'm wearing a leopard shirt or what? What's that? Yabba dabba doo. The Flintstone shirt.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Yep, yep.

Elijah Desmond:
We are very different, I am different, I am unique, I am my authentic self. I don't do things the same as everybody else. I love and respect the paths that everybody has made in this industry, including the brokers. They do great things. We're not them. We do it different. And how are we doing things different? We didn't talk about this part, but like I'm a DJ, I've been in nine countries and 25 cities, and this the past couple of years, DJing at dental events throughout the entire world, right? So, I basically remixed an idea. Djing is a thing. Like people like to dance, to have fun. I remixed a thing that already worked outside of our industry. I brought it into the broker space and people were like, oh, that's too fun. It's a serious setting, and you can't fun selling your dental practice. So we basically have an event to where we bring ten qualified buyers and put them in a room, confidential setting. We have a full AV setup in the room with a stage audiovisual setup, and we have the music cranking. When the seller comes to the room, the seller comes in the room. And what do we have? A walk-on song. We have a walk-on song for them to sell the business of their dreams. They've been working their butt off for this. They get on the stage and they interview in front of the buyers and we ask them, question me or my business partner. We ask them questions, and then the buyers ask the questions. They already have all the financials two weeks ahead of time. So the buyers ask questions, and they can have up to ten meetings in just one opportunity, one shot, one event. And so that's our background. That's who we are. That's how we're different. I brought music and Brokerage space. And I'm not all like I wear a three piece suit. Sometimes, I actually wear scrubs. Sometimes, I still have a license as a hygienist, but I'm just myself. Whatever I want to wear, today I'm wearing a leopard shirt, but it's unique. It's different. And so that's why we've attracted so many people because they're used to like the same thing. Well, this is totally different. And then full circle, since I gave you the backstory, what are the challenges I'm seeing on the buy side with the challenges on the sell side? Well, can I say top three on the sell side? I would say that dentists are going to sell their practice when it's time to retire. Number one mistake that I've seen.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Okay.

Elijah Desmond:
They're selling when it's time to retire, and there's not that many buyers, and they've a lot of them have built up this big practice. So, say you build up a practice to $2.5 to $3.5 million in collections. That's a thriving practice. It's going to be kind of hard for an average dentist coming out of college or one solo dentist to go and buy the practice. It's a lot of money. And then for the dentist who is looking to just retire, that is a perfect practice, by the way, for a emerging group small, midsize, large DSO, private equity family office. The perfect group to buy. I mean, that's amazing. 2.5 to 3 million in collections. As long as you have great margins, you're getting ate up quick. However, you should stay. They want you to stay. They want you to continue to stay in that practice for 3 to 5 or more years. Now, if you would have thought about selling 3 or 5 years ago, you'd have been made in the shade drinking pina coladas in five years. But since you didn't, you got to stay in the practice unless you want way less for your practice. So will it sell? Sure. But number one mistake I see is you're waiting way too long. Have the conversation now, because guess what? I'll say 50% of the conversations we're having, we're telling the dentist like. And it's just the best advice, right? Your margins really low. Like you got a 12% margin. 13%, 15%. You should probably bring that margin up to 20% or more to get a healthy sale. But right now, is it worth it? So we basically see them not thinking about the sale early. So that's the first thing. The second thing is, is going into the sale and not knowing what perfect looks like for them. We've got to the one-yard line before and got a tremendous offer, both on their real estate and on their practice. And then they go to their financial advisor and they're like, oh, it's not going to be enough for me to really have the lifestyle that I want to have. Why didn't you have that conversation four months ago before we started? Because like, we only pay at the office, get paid if the office sells, right?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Precisely.

Elijah Desmond:
And so, if you would have had these conversations ahead of time to know, here is my number. Because you can work backwards from there, you can know, okay, I'm going to grow my practice to X. That way, I can get x. So that's the second thing that I biggest issue I've seen on the sell side, I want to say the last piece is growing in a small space. That's probably the third one. What do I mean by growing in a small space? Well, you're maxing 3 or 4 operatories out, and you want to sell even if you're going to stay. It leaves very little room for growth. So these offices is not going to be a bidding war, that's for sure. And by the way, I got my auctioneer license a little bit less than a year ago.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Congratulations.

Elijah Desmond:
So it's not going to be a bidding war. I'm not bidding practices, by the way. They're benefit auctions. But anyways, my point is, is 3 or 4 operatories is not enough. If you want to get max value for your practice, you really need to be at like the six or more operatories range. So growing a practice and maxing it out and then you're locked in that lease, just basically go with the mindset of I'm going to grow into this space, buy bigger than you need. So that's the third mistake there. You may go to the to the buy side or you good for that.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I'm good for that. I want to go back and kind of touch base on what you said. Okay. So you said 20% margin. A lot of times, these guys are like, hey, you know what? I got a 50% overhead. I got a 40% overhead. I got a 60% overhead. Whatever that number is, right? They are really, really confusing that overhead versus what the actual profit is.

Elijah Desmond:
Because their income, they're not including their income.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Exactly. So that is one thing I want you to share a little bit. Like, what is it they're doing wrong and what do they need to start thinking about that part?

Elijah Desmond:
Absolutely. So when you think of margin, the money that's left over after everything is paid okay, including your salary.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Boom.

Elijah Desmond:
So, it's okay to take a standard salary and just take distributions each year, right?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Sure.

Elijah Desmond:
Take distributions to yourself that's not counted as your salary. But understand the salary that you're taking. Make it so it's fair because when that next buyer comes along, ultimately, that's a huge part of your sale, right? What are you paying yourself? Is it 30%? 35%? Is it 25%? I don't know what that is, but the point is that when you talk about your margin, you need to also include your pay. And your pay should be a base pay or your regular salary. And then your distributions, your distributions will be part of the EBITDA but not your pay.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That is such a huge, huge point because so many times these guys go like, oh yeah, this place is only a 20% profit. No, no, no, I don't want to touch it because, for my current practice, I have over 50%. And I'm like, no, no.

Elijah Desmond:
Right? It's rare. Now, have I seen it before? Yes, I have seen it before with very high margins, very high margins. And typically you see that in a specialty practice. Specialty practice is where I've seen it, whether it's PDO or a heavy implants implant centers kind of thing. I've seen that where, but not in a GP setting. It's not really normal to have that. I've never seen in a GP, but you talk about specialty, that's when you could potentially see higher stuff from about 40%. Realistically 40%. I've one time, I've one time seen 50% as a kind of a unicorn. I wouldn't even say that exists, but it did. But I would say the average is around 20% where you should be if you're trying to look to exit for the best, exit that or above.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And if someone is actually trying to exit within, like let's say 5 or 6 years, their time is today.

Elijah Desmond:
Yes. Thank you. Yes, the time is today. And I'm going to tell you, you may not think like, all right, I want to be done in five years, doesn't matter. Like start having those conversations right now because you can get yourself in a position, know your number, and then you can build your life from there. I would recommend sitting down with a financial advisor and discussing what does that look like. And hopefully, you've invested and whatnot along the journey to get there, right? So it's not just your practice, but at the end of the day, knowing what your number is. Like, for me, I know my number. I know my personal number. And I, by the way, I had, like, recently just transitioned. I just exited for businesses myself. We won't talk about that on the podcast, but I know my number. I know exactly what it is. I know what my number is right now, what I need in which I can invest, and I could live off of the interest. I know my like, OMG, that would be so amazing. That's the middle of the road. I know what that number would be. And then there's this, like yeah, right? You live in like a celebrity, you know what I mean? Then there's this. And I know that number too. And I'm 37 years old. I will get that other number, the right one. I'll get that in five years, 100% for sure. I'm going to do it. But I know how much I need to make in my businesses to exit. And these aren't like crazy numbers. I know what my EBITDA needs to be, and I know the realistic multiples on what the EBITDA will sell for, and I know I needed to get to, so I know in advance where I need to be in order to get there. Does that make sense?

Dr. Noel Liu:
Absolutely. You know, for some of the new audience, I just wanted to touch base on, you mentioned about quality of earnings. What does that entail? What is the significance of that and how does that affect the EBITDA?

Elijah Desmond:
Yes. First off, I'll explain that there's a quality of earnings, and then there's what we are very close with. We recommend everybody get done. We make everybody do quality earnings late. So it's like a lighter version of a quality of earnings. So, this typically came primarily from the buy side. So the buyers who are purchasing your practice are going to do I'm going to call it, a deep financial analysis in the past three years or two years, plus rolling 12 in the past three years of your practice; you're going to basically know what the EBITDA is, what it was, what the adjusted EBITDA is, what the payer mix is. They're going to know every piece of data as it relates to that EBITDA, where it comes from, what's high, what's low, what are the percentage from each area in that practice of where it is compared to where it should be. So, that is a financial snapshot. I highly recommend wherever you're at in your practice journey, get a quality of earnings. It's called being exit-ready at all times, and anything happens. You know this is where you're at. This is where you need to be. It's like having a goal but not putting a number on it. I just want to grow. Who cares? Everybody wants to grow. What area do you want to grow? And once you know what that number is, it's so fast that you can get there. But if you're just growing, I'm going to work every day.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Like no goal.

Elijah Desmond:
Right? You don't know goals. And where are you going? You're not going to go that far like that.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Awesome. So, EBITDA briefly. What is that?

Elijah Desmond:
Earnings before interest taxes, depreciation, and amortization.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So that's essentially your net income, correct?

Elijah Desmond:
Basically, your net income. So, let's just say you have the easiest way to put it. Say you have a $1 million loan out, and that loan is going to say you're paying 10% interest on. Okay. So that's $100,000. Okay. So, if you're taking $100,000 out of your practice each year because of that loan, it's okay. No problem. You just add that back in. That's probably the easiest piece for that. Then, you have your depreciation of equipment and amortization. And so I will tell you this. My business partner actually wrote the handbook on EBITDA. He wrote the Dental EBITDA Handbook. It's free on our website Dental Pitch Brokerage. You can download it for free. I would just tell you this: if you want to know an easy way to calculate your EBITDA, look at your net profit. Just look at what your net profit is and make sure that you are fully aware. Is your salary in there or not? Is your salary in there or not? Or I would say a healthy practice is probably about 20% is a healthy practice. So if you're a $1 million practice, it's probably about 200,000. A healthy practice. Double that for a $2 million practice, etc. but get your quality of earnings taken care of, I think it's super important. And here's another thing you are thinking about selling. Even if you're not going to use a broker, if you don't use a broker, it's okay. But here's a couple pieces of advice. The first number one piece of advice is get that quality of earnings done. Number one. Number two is talk to someone else that you're selling to in that group. That means if let's just say you're selling Heartland, go find a few Heartland doctors on your own and ask them how it was that DCA. Go find a few DCA dentists that already sold. Ask them how that was super important. Ask them how it was. Also, when you're going on this journey, whoever you're going down the journey with, whatever broker that is, or if you're by yourself. Super important to get that broker wall down and meet the person that you might be selling to early. Don't wait till you're 50% or 75% in. It can be the biggest waste of time ever. Just meet them early. You'll know if it's a cultural fit or not. There are some very hands-on group, and there are some very hands-off group. There are some groups that have just the management services, a high level, you know, you, HR, your payroll, your revenue cycle management, your marketing. Then there's people that go in, and they try to change everything. And maybe that's what you want. But I think it's super important to understand what that group is all about before going down those rabbit holes and back-and-forth negotiations. And the terms are more important than the amount of money that you're getting. The terms are more important.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I've heard this again and again, and a lot of times, it's not about the money that you'd be getting. It's about what you're locked into. I love it, yes.

Elijah Desmond:
What you're locked into, for sure. It's been so fun. Just. I mean, I was on the consulting side for a while. It's consulting dental practices, 2011 to 2017, '18. It's actually really, really fun to. I mean, I've practiced clinically, you know, I didn't like it. I practiced clinically, I've been on the consulting side. I've been through all of these sales myself. I've also been through failures. It's important to understand. And now I'm able to, like, comprehensively look at everything. Yeah, I get it. Like, I'm a clinician, I understand. I get it; I have a science degree. I also understand from a practice growth standpoint, I don't do that. I can't say if this is wrong. I'm not going to fix it. But I say this is this number is way off. This is wrong. This is wrong, and actually know it. There's one thing to be like: you should do this, or you should do that. It's a completely other. Another thing to say, in my experience, this is exactly what I did, and this is the exact roadmap to get there to actually know and be in the trenches.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Absolutely.

Elijah Desmond:
And, you know, my business partner, Matt Ornstein, he himself, like he went from 20 locations to 71 locations in three and a half years, buying practices one at a time. And he worked with all the brokers' firms. And so to have that know-how and that's my team. That's really cool. Like I got to me and Matt. We both own the business equally. Nice. I got to jump from my event background, right, and business background. I got to jump in, and automatically, I have two full-time attorneys on the team. I have Jason Brown, who is our managing director, who literally took it from 20 to 71 locations. He went through the whole M&A process for all of those groups, right? So he's the one that's on our team with Pitch Brokerage that's actually doing the back end of the work. The hard part after they sign with us, they're taking he's taking them to the finish line. And just like you and Matt have in common, he's been in the real estate world for a really long time. He's got nine car washes, commercial real estate. He's building Amazon warehouses. He's a superstar. But us together, yin and yang. It's been an amazing journey.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You got a dream team going on there.

Elijah Desmond:
Dream team, yes.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I got the last question for you, man. Yes. So you got this Mastermind going on, right? Yeah. A lot of people have been asking about like, how do I learn more about the business side? How do I learn more about what you're doing? How do I learn more about what Elijah is doing with speaking engagements and etc., etc.? Tell us a little bit about your Mastermind. What's all that about?

Elijah Desmond:
Thank you, well.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I'm curious myself. Let's put it that way.

Elijah Desmond:
Yeah, so this might be a question for after the podcast, but I gave a shout-out to the people in my Mastermind at Dental podfest for the first time. It was 25 people that came out to support Glenbow. And I won't speak necessarily about my Mastermind just because it's not open to the public. Okay. It's invitation only, but I can't tell you the power of a Mastermind in general. Yeah. Mine is specifically for dental entrepreneurs. It can be a dentist, but the dentist also has to have a business outside of the dental practice, meaning they have to have a service, a software, a product, or they have to own multiple locations, basically, right? But at the end of the day, a Mastermind is a setting in which you can put a whole bunch of brains in the same room, and it acts as if you have a super brain. I believe in coaching. My business coach is Dr. Eric Roman. I've been with him for over three years now. I've always had a business coach. I've always invested every year between 30,000 and just over $100,000 on my personal development every year, and Eric has been a part of it the past three years. I believe that when you get a coach, a coach will tell you one side for the most part. Outside of accountability, they're going to tell you their personal experience and their view on what they feel that you should do. That is a coach. Now, what is a Mastermind? A Mastermind is when you get multiple people in the same room that are of the same growth mindset. So, for example, my Mastermind, nobody is getting in unless they're an entrepreneur that has these three core values. Kindness, number one, we have no jerks, which is awesome. An abundance mindset. What is an abundance mindset? One plus one equals 11. Not one minus one equals zero. We believe iron sharpens iron, and we share blueprints. We share cheat codes, right? So that's the second core value, which is abundance. The third one is fun. We love we love having fun. And loo,k 30% of our group is sober. They don't drink. So, I don't necessarily mean partying. But what I mean by fun laughing, dancing, singing, traveling the world while growing our businesses, that's fun. And then the last piece is they all have to be of the mindset of; I'm going to grow my business to sell it within the next 3 to 5 years. It could be next year. It could be the year after. It's a group of individuals. But the point is, with a Mastermind, you don't have one person coaching you. You have many people sharing their experiences, so you can get a shortcut. I personally am a time bender. I'm 37 years old. When you see me, I was 371 years wise. I am now today day 375 years wise since we seen each other last in January. How is that? Well, it's because I take his brain, her brain, and then your brain, and I will pick out what you've already did. I'll put it in my brain, and I'll apply that to the rest of my life. And so, I have been able to skip years because I am a lifetime student. I am far from knowing it all. And Masterminds advance you forward so fast. So, I pay for shortcuts every single place that I go. Just like in the beginning, we said something along the lines of if you're thinking about you're into doing something newer, or you think there's a chance that you could fail, what are you going to do? Said, I'm paying for a blueprint. If I fail, I'm going to be locked arms with someone. We're failing together, or many people, or I'm going to be lifted from so many people I can't fail. So that's what a Mastermind does, is there's a meeting of the minds. It's a place to share. Like, if you have this great idea and you've done all these things, it's a place for you to go and share. If you're a private person, probably a Mastermind in general is not for you, but if you're a person that's full of abundance and wants the world to be a better place and likes to share your ideas and give your ideas to people, you don't see competition, and that is absolutely something you should do is join a Mastermind in general. So, hopefully, that answers the question the best. Like I said, I've never talked about it ever on a podcast, but you did hear me say that from the stage, and it was because I was so happy to have 25 of our 35 members out supporting Glen. Glen is one of the members in the Mastermind.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And that's one of those things where we always talk about investing in yourself. And I've heard time after time people are like, oh, why should I pay for a Mastermind? Why should I invest in Mastermind? I have to travel. I have to do this. I have to do that. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's like you got to invest in yourself. That's the biggest asset that we carry around every single day. And the way you put it up is it's like you got best of all the minds together and then everybody just pitching ideas, right? Yeah. So 1,000%, my man. 1,000%. Well, hey, Elijah. It was great, man. It was great having you. I'm going to land the plane very soon before we land the plane. In a short sentence, what does success mean to you?

Elijah Desmond:
Well, success is broken into three different departments. To me, it means three things. To me, success is broken into disorder, health, family, and financial. Financial could be business or not. And success is having a balance of these three. That can not always be a 50/50 balance, but having a balance. And it can move between the three fluidly. If you can master the fluidity of moving between family, health, and finance, then you've hit your success, and it's different for every person.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it, love it. You know, one thing that you changed up last minute was you. This is a fluidity, like trying to go back and forth. Not a lot of people understand that part, by the way.

Elijah Desmond:
Yeah, they think it's, oh, half family, half it's all.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Yeah. It's all work-life balance, right? You got to be able to switch. And, you know, move.

Elijah Desmond:
Yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Well, I mean, hey, it was great. Any last-minute statements or where people can find you?

Elijah Desmond:
Yes. I'll give a last-minute statement after I give where people can find me. First off, I'm on almost every social media platform outside of TikTok. It's me. It's not somebody else. So reach out in any. Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. You can find me there. Just type in Elijah Desmond Dental Brokerage. Go to www.DentalPitchBrokerage.com. You can reach out to me there. My business partner's two books are there. You can download them for free. One is normally $99, but it's free on the site. You can personally reach out to me at Elijah@DentalPitchBrokerage.com, and I'd love to help. Conversations are free, and I love helping people. That's how I've got where I've got today. I'll leave you with this note help and give first. Give pure. And what does giving pure mean? That means giving without looking for something back. When you're giving, that should be what you're getting. The gift of giving is ultimately what you are personally getting. That's called giving pure. Don't wait until you have it. Don't wait until you get the time. Give now, don't wait. That's my biggest advice I can give to anybody out there.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Boom. And that's a mic drop right there.

Elijah Desmond:
Thank you.

Dr. Noel Liu:
All right. Thanks, Elijah. Well, ladies and gentlemen, thanks for hearing and watching our latest episode of our pod. And make sure to like and subscribe. We will catch you on our next episode.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Elijah Desmond:

 

Elijah Desmond began his professional career at the age of 15 as a youth motivational speaker. Always drawn to helping others, he later pursued a degree in healthcare at Ohio State University. After graduating with a Bachelor of Science in Dental Hygiene, Elijah moved to Hawaii and worked in private practice for a brief period. Never complacent, he started his first of many businesses after leaving clinical dentistry and identifies as a “serial entrepreneur.” Elijah now resides in South Florida with his wife and two daughters.

Elijah gets to share his love for music as a DJ with large crowds! He is also Vice President for a non-profit called Beyond the Game, which offers development programs for 3rd grade students called Guys With Ties and Girls with Pearls. Elijah has been involved in over 500 events. Although he has a wide range of experience, Elijah is most passionate about delivering motivational concerts to young students in high schools worldwide. He has spoken over 1,000 hours collectively and participates in events in 2-3 locations per month.

Elijah’s events and experiences focus on two things: FUN and Education. Known for having engaging speeches and incorporating motivation into all of his events, Elijah is adamant that a fun atmosphere is essential to learning. Elijah is best known for turning traditional conferences into exciting, modern-day events and festivals. You also may know him for creating Smiles at Sea cruises and The Dental Festival. Owner of masterminds like Backstage Dentistry, Destination Unknown, and Jet Life. His newest venture is Smiles for Auction, where he leads auctions at corporate events, with the profits going to a charity of the event’s choice.

In addition to his dental practices, Dr. Liu is also very passionate about mentoring and guiding his associate doctors in their transition from students to clinicians.  He has built a successful framework for model, mimic, and mastery flow to help them achieve their personal, professional, and financial goals and efficiencies.

Things You’ll Learn:

  • Selling a dental practice requires early planning to maximize options and profitability. Dentists should start preparing 3-5 years before retirement to ensure a smoother transition and better financial outcomes.
  • A strong financial foundation is essential for a successful sale. Maintaining a margin of 20% or higher and conducting a quality of earnings assessment helps sellers understand their financial health and increase practice value.
  • Defining clear financial goals before selling is critical. Knowing the target number for post-sale financial security prevents wasted time and ensures alignment with long-term lifestyle needs.
  • Finding the right buyer is just as important as the sale price. Sellers should research potential buyers early to ensure a cultural and operational fit and avoid last-minute surprises in negotiations.
  • A fresh approach to brokerage can make selling a practice more efficient and enjoyable. By incorporating music, energy, and structured events, Elijah Desmond connects sellers with multiple buyers in a streamlined, engaging format.
  • True success is about balancing health, family, and finances. Maintaining fluidity between these areas leads to a more fulfilling and sustainable life.

Resources:

Categories
Podcast

Building, Scaling, and Leading a Dental Practice

Dr. Jim Arnold

Summary:

What does it take to build and scale a thriving dental practice while maintaining a strong leadership mindset?

In this episode of the Secure Dental Podcast, founder of Luxury Dental Retreats, Dr. Jim Arnold, shares his journey of expanding from a single dental practice to three locations through strategic planning, mentorship, and continuous learning in business, leadership, and communication. He emphasizes the importance of surrounding oneself with successful individuals and investing in personal growth to accelerate success. His ventures, Luxury Dental Retreats, and Foundation Dental Services, focus on immersive education and collaborative, doctor-led practice growth. He believes strong leadership requires a clear vision, the right team, and alignment with the right partners. Ultimately, he advocates for a mindset of self-awareness, continuous improvement, and an abundance mentality to achieve long-term success.

Tune in for an inspiring conversation with Dr. Jim Arnold as he shares his journey, insights on business growth, leadership strategies, and the power of mentorship in the dental industry! 

 

Secure Dental_Dr. Jim Arnold: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental_Dr. Jim Arnold: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hey, hey, welcome, everybody, to another episode of our Secure Dental podcast, where we bring in many different talents from both inside and outside our dental industry. And today I have a very special guest, Dr. Jim Arnold. I've known this guy for, I don't know, a few years now. We hardly meet, but I feel like I know him pretty well, and I'll let him be the judge of that. So Dr. Arnold has been in the dental industry for over 20-plus years, and he had his own dental practice in Valparaiso, Indiana. He's the guy who knows his stuff when it comes to private equity, trying to grow, practice, leadership as well as team development. So, without taking the thunder away, I'm going to pass the mic off to Jim and let him do all the talking there. Jim, the floor is yours.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
All right, man. Hey, it's good to see you again. Like you said, we've known each other for a few years, but we hardly ever run into each other. And that's why it was great to see you when we were in Orlando for Pod Fest and to reconnect today. So, like you said, I'm in Valparaiso, Indiana, just outside of Chicago, and over the years grew to just a little three-group practice. And it was a lot of fun. We had some amazing teams build something special. And I guess about ten years ago, we did sell to private equity, joined a traditional DSO, and transitioned into that next stage of the career. I always had a vision that at 50, I'd probably be done with clinical dentistry, because I felt like I crammed a 30-year career in about eight years, and just was really excited to parlay all that experience, all those relationships, the wins, the losses, the good, the bad into whatever came next in the industry. And so that's what I've been focused on for the past few years, and it's been really exciting.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So I want to take you back in time. Not that far back, but let's say, when you opened up your first practice, what was the thought process behind it, and what were your goals and aspirations at that time?

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Hey, that's a great question. I graduated in the '96, and I was an associate and kind of a mom-and-pop practice for three years. Be honest, I came out of dental school, like a lot of us, without any business skills, without any great communication skills, without having learned about leadership. And so those three years were a good time for me to just learn as much as I could. And I learned a lot of good things, and I learned some bad things, but I saw a lot of potential in that practice, so I stuck it out and bought that practice in '99. My thought process was, hey, this practice does really well, but it could do a heck of a lot better, and we can do better dentistry, which is good for everybody. So I put together a plan, and over the next couple of years, we really actually, in the first year we doubled it, which was easier because I knew all the patients pretty well and had developed those relationships. But within a few years, we'd outgrown that and bought a second practice. And then a few years after that, we bought a third practice. But during all of that time, we also had four kids come to the table. And I was doing 300 hours of CE a year, and then I was teaching. And so life was crazy during that magical decade. We, during that time, of course, professionally, we had a lot of irons on the fire, and with the kids growing up and all that sort of thing, it became a challenge just to find that balance, try to find a happy medium between running a business, doing dentistry, doing some teaching, and raising four kids. And so, right when we just about had a handle on it, the three practices were flowing really well, like doubled or gone from zero to over a million within the first year. We thought, hey, why not take on the sport of triathlon also? So my wife and I, in the middle of this crazy busyness, got into triathlon, and we don't know anything. Partway we got in and started training 20 hours a week for full Ironman, and so we had a very busy about 2000 until 2013 or so. And then, in 2015, we decided it was time to slow down a little bit, and that's when we decided to go ahead and sell our practices.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Amazing. I want to pick your brain a little bit here. We get asked a lot of times by dentists, our colleagues, right? What took you from zero to doubling your practice? Because that's a question that a lot of people ask. And then they want to go like, hey, is it a good time to invest in a second practice? What would be your take on why stick with the first, why open a second, or why not open a second? And how do you double? Because a lot of people are in the same boat and they want to grow, but they don't exactly know. So, what would you share or like to pitch in? What was your forte?

Dr. Jim Arnold:
I think that you look at every practice differently because every practice has a different kind of signature. And once you understand what's going on in that practice, then you can devise a plan to grow it and just make it better whether it's systems, whether it's your team, whether it's efficiency, whether it's clinical. Everybody has different needs. And in our case, there were a lot of needs. And so literally spent a year prior to buying that practice, putting together a really detailed plan. And part of that plan was really educating ourselves as well, because most of us, again, we come out of school without those business skills, leadership skills, communication skills. So, I spent probably 70 hours a week just learning everything I could. I picked up some great mentors, and those mentors helped fast-track that growth. Because again, if you come out and you don't have those things because they're not automatic, find people who have done what you want to do and learn from their successes, learn from their mistakes, and try to fast track things. And that's exactly what we did in terms of then taking it from one practice to a second practice. And you've been through this to a lot more, but that first to second sometimes is is the hardest, because when we felt like we got things running really smoothly, really efficiently, we're in a good place. We're making a lot of money, we're doing great dentistry, we've got great relationships. Why change? But that second practice, surprisingly, is what really freed us up, because, at that point, we were able to hire another dentist who then was able to split time, which then freed me up to spend a little bit more time managing things. And then the third practice rolled around. Guess what? I had two high performance teams, and all of a sudden I had managers who could start to manage, and then I got to lead. I think a lot of us follow that path. You go from being an engineer to being a manager and then ultimately being going to a leadership position. And in my case, it wasn't necessarily that well thought out, but that was the natural progression of things. And I don't know about you. For me, that's a natural place to be where you don't have to do all of the heavy lifting necessarily, but you've got that vision, and you've got that team, and then you're able to put them in positions to be successful, and from there, sky's the limit, as you can do anything.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Man, you touch on a lot of points. And I was just, you said it so casually, but the audience listening to it. You spoke something about systems, processes, having a dynamic team, right? And then the biggest one was getting a mentor. And I think you cannot argue the fact that mentor would help you accelerate and compress time. The other fact that I like what you just said was find somebody who's done what you want to do. And Jim, man. Come on. You and I, we both know there's too many gurus out there in this industry that he's preaching stuff that they haven't even done.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
It's true. Hey, man, you're absolutely right. It's crazy. When you're a young dentist, you don't necessarily know who's legit, who isn't, who's really talking the talk and walking the walk. And you know, it's so funny because that does bring me right to that next point, that early stage, because I was out there literally doing 300 hours a year, and see, I was dragging my team all over the country. We were spending 100, 200 grand a year on education, but what it did was it exposed me to a lot of different people and a lot of different leaders. And at one point, I'm not even exaggerating. I literally had a list of 17 mentors. And here's the trick I think it's important to know what everybody's good at, because there aren't that many that are like all rounders who can do it all really well. But I learned to recognize, oh man, this guy is really good at this, and she's really good at that, but they're not necessarily good at these other things. So, I picked and chose what I wanted to learn from each of those people. And for me, that helped me put it all together into something that worked for me. And I think that for a lot of people, that's what it is. Don't necessarily trust a guru for everything, but pick and choose what you want to learn from different people and put it together into a system that is going to work well for you because we're all different, right?

Dr. Noel Liu:
100%. One point: I really love what you just said. Once when we start, we get our first practice. It's like we are an entrepreneur, right? We are wearing all the hats. Yeah, we are an engineer. I love that analogy because a lot of times we as dentists, we get lost in that arena. And what happens is we never tend to grow ourselves into the leadership position. And that's where I think, personally, I think you nailed it. A lot of people get stuck in there. So you went from that progression. I just want you to explain that pathway. How does someone recognize, you said you recognized a need, and you said you recognized, like you wanted to move up what was behind the scenes that was going on in your head? And was it a coincidence, or was it something which you've gotten through your mentors or you studied, like with all that key hours that you had?

Dr. Jim Arnold:
I think it's a little bit of everything, to be honest. It's one of those things where I didn't come out with clear vision of what I wanted to do. I have friends who did. They knew in their third year of dental school exactly what they wanted to do, and had a really good sense as to how they wanted to do it. And I wasn't one of those guys. I really didn't to some degree. There was some luck involved kind of being in the right place at the right time, but we also create our own luck, right, in the right room with the right people having the right conversations. And one thing has always been true of me: I want to be in a room with people who are more successful than me, or who are doing something better than me, because that's where you learn and grow. If you feel like you're an eight and you're in a room full of threes, you're going to go down to their level. But if you're an eight and you want to be a ten, hang out with a ten. And those are the people who are going to not only inspire you and elevate your vision, but they're the ones that are going to give you the roadmap to actually go there. And I got really good at that early on at recognizing who I wanted to spend my time with, because what do they say? Like we are a product of the six people we spend the most time with or something like that. And so I was really focused, and I'm even more focused on that now because look, as we age, you know, I'm 55, which I feel very young anyway. But at 55.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You are my friend. You are.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
You got to spend those hours, like really intelligently. I go into a week like mid-winter, and I'm going to be up there. I'm going to have five nights in the city. Well, I've got all those booked, and they're booked with people or groups where I. It's just where I need to be, because those are the conversations I need to have for the aspirations that I have moving forward in life. And I just don't want to take time that's going to pull me down or pull me back or hold me back, if that makes sense.

Dr. Noel Liu:
1,000%, and I love the fact that you said you want to hang around with people that are higher and much better than you, so how does somebody go ahead and find something like this, like a mastermind group or guys who are level ten and I'm a level five? How does somebody go about finding it? And a lot of times if they do find it, they are like, oh shoot, man, it's too expensive. What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Look, man, I think intentionality is the first part of that. Whether you're reading something, watching something, listening to something, surfing the net, searching, searching social media, whatever, we know who's out there. Most of us know what the resources are. And if don't, we talk to somebody who does love it and get that little tip, get that kind of direction, and then be intentional about seeking out those relationships. And to your point, yeah, man, you got to invest in yourself. You are the best investment that you will ever make. And if you don't invest in yourself by seeking out and usually paying those mentors or paying to being a mastermind of brilliant people who help you raise your game, then you're not going to go anywhere. Whether you're investing time, money, effort. Nothing comes for free, man. There is really like no shortcut is going to take work, it's going to take determination, and it's going to take focus, and you better have all three.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love something you just said. Nothing is free. I heard this phrase that if it's for free, you're the product.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
You know what? And I don't know, I think everybody's probably been there at some point and.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh, yes, old.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
And as gray as I am. And you figure those things out and where you are in the food chain or in the ecosystem. And as long as you're aware of where you're at now and you know where you want to go, well, and you can chart a course to get to that place. And when you find those people you vibe with, and you really respect, and you love what they've done, man, stick with them and just follow the path. Why create something new? Unless you're like a super creative type and you want to reinvent the wheel, that is awesome. More power to you. I'm not really that guy, man. I would much rather duplicate genius than reinvent the wheel any day, because that's what fast tracks you in terms of your trajectory professionally.

Dr. Noel Liu:
100%. And you're so true, because at this point, when somebody is better, or you recognize that person, age does not matter. There are so many guys out there who are way younger than us, and they know a whole lot more than us, right? Sure. So, Jim, you and I, we've been in this position where we've seen younger guys. They are killing it. So, if we are not doing what they're doing, I think we need to hang around with them. And that's I think a lot of times people have it in their minds that, oh well, yeah, I'm old enough. I probably am wiser or I know a little bit more. That's the wrong mentality.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
You know what it is. And I'll be honest, I've gone through that. When you go from early 30s, like being a student and then turning into the teacher, and you've been there, done everything, and you've hung out with all the right people, had all the right conversations I did. I went through a little period there where I'm like, hey, man. Like, yeah, I'm going to go here. There's really not that much to learn, and that is the wrong mentality. And it didn't last long, fortunately, because I'm like you said, I don't care who it is, humble yourself out and you go straight to that source and figure out how are they doing this or why are they doing this? Where are they going? And do I want to do something similar? And you're right, I don't care if you're 29 or 59, if you got what I want, if you're doing what I want to do, I want to be in your orbit and learn from you 1,000%.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You just nailed it right in the head. And guy like you, seriously, I feel like you've taken it to the next level with all your experiences. And what I'm thinking here is, what are you doing with all this knowledge that you have, right? And I would, and I want to change gears a little bit. So, I see that you've founded these two ventures: Luxury Dental Retreats and Foundation Dental Services. With all that past knowledge, all that experience that you had, and all the stuff that you went through. What made you go with these two ventures, and what are you doing with these two?

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Man, great question. And you know, again, everything that we do in life, a lot of it is very intentional, and you follow the set path and you just do it. And sometimes you stumble onto something. Sometimes, you think about something in a moment, and you change courses. The zig-zag principle. Sure. And in my case, it was a lot of that because I really felt like everything I had done in my career led up to where I would just get into the DSO space. Be an executive helped grow, and I've done that. I have private equity friends who bought me out, and I helped them launch four different DSOs. And it was really awesome because I learned so much. Like I helped some of my friends get really good deals. I learned about deal structure, I learned about how that works, blah blah blah blah blah. And then I became an exec in a DSO for one year. And nothing against the people, nothing against the company. But that wasn't the lifestyle that I wanted. I was on the road four days a week, 201 Marriott nights in one year. That's too much. But what I've learned through all of that learned a lot of things. But what I learned and was most important was I have a lot of value to give based upon what I have done. But it's not all about giving. I've also got to receive. I've got to really enjoy what I'm doing. I got to feel like I'm not just creating value for everybody else, but I'm creating value for myself and for my family. So, let's start with Luxury Dental Retreats. Last summer, I was just, I was really thinking about it, and I was actually talking with a mentor, and he asked some really good questions because I was a little bit unclear about what I wanted to do next. And I always loved the education space as a student, as an educator, I got a lot of both of those. Loved it. What did I love most? Small group learning and teaching. Because in small groups, you can roll up your sleeves and get real. You can really dig in when you've only got 8 to 10 people in the room, and people are much more likely to be open about their own struggles, their own challenges, or their own successes. And when you got 8 to 10 people in the room who are really open from a business and a personal standpoint, there is maximum room for growth. And that was always the case with me. And so I am now putting dentists in those kind of situations where there aren't 20 or 30 or 100 people in the room, there's 8 to 10. And again, we can go deep, we can go deep on everything, and everybody is fully transparent and helping one another. And you could say that's how a mastermind works. You know, as a general rule. And our education, two things. One, it is very conversational education. I have a faculty of nine, and they each have something different that they bring to the table. So we set up these retreats with different content and different speakers at each one. So there's a little bit of something for everybody. You can look at the menu and say, hey man, I really want to learn more about communication. So I'm going to go to this retreat. Oh, hey man, like these guys are really good, and I want to learn more about clinical and maybe about planning my exit strategy. I want to go to Dubai. That's going to be amazing. And so I really wanted to give dentists options to learn in that kind of an environment from the very best niche experts in all of those topics. But you know what? I'm a travel snob, man. I've been doing luxury travel with my family for 25 years, and I like to travel in style. It's not enough for me to just go someplace and do this. You can do that and create value, and you can get great value in a conference center, in a hotel, or at McCormick place. There's value to be found everywhere. But I find when you get away from home, like maybe out of the country, and you're in a luxury situation where you're being catered to, treated like a VIP with your little tribe man, the opportunity for growth is unlimited while you enjoy your time there. Maybe you're getting a massage. Maybe you're out on the water for the afternoon after having learned for five hours in the morning. But the best of both worlds: education and vacation. And that's what I'm really passionate about right now.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Wow, wow. So this stuff here is totally different from traditional dental CE courses, right? Like, you guys are out in a resort or something.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
For the most part, we're doing like luxury villas where we're all staying under one roof and there aren't a lot of distractions. It's us, and a chef, and a concierge. Maybe a massage therapist, and we're just, like, getting into it, but we're all there together. So, like, I have one coming up in nine days, I'm going to be in Puerto Vallarta with a group of doctors, and we will be learning amazing things in terms of personal growth. We're going to get into body, being, balance, and business, and those four categories control everything. And some of us have 1 or 2 of them dialed in, or maybe even three of them. But everybody's got room for growth. And let's be honest, we have room for growth in all of those areas. Of course, in a situation like that where we can, like, really get into it and teach frameworks, figure out where we're at today. And 72 hours later, we figured out where we are, where we want to go, and we have a detailed blueprint to get to where we want to go in all four categories. So I'm pretty fired up about that 1 in 9 days.

Dr. Noel Liu:
How often do you have this in a year?

Dr. Jim Arnold:
I have five on the calendar right now with.

Dr. Noel Liu:
For the, for 2025.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Yep. Yep. Exactly. Wow.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Okay.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
It's a lot. It's definitely a lot. It's a lot of moving parts, but I'm really passionate about it. I mean, it's one of those things that is fun. And you're going to get the best ROI that you're going to get anywhere else. Because again, and.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Like you said, man, it's an investment in yourself.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
That's right. Exactly, exactly. And when you have direct access where you're sitting like five feet away and you stop the speaker and say, hey, here's my situation. And then it's a dialogue rather than a monologue. Very casual, conversational education straight from the source where they're doing what you want to do. And we're going to give you the path to get there.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Man, it's like power. Proximity. That's what I believe in. Love it.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Exactly. Tony Robbins talks about that all the time. You want to be in the right room.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Right. So, I'm going to take it. One other venture, right? So the Foundation Dental Services. What's that about?

Dr. Jim Arnold:
I have seen the good, bad, and the ugly in the industry when it comes to practice transitions. I've played a role in maybe 60 or 70 transitions at some level. I've bought personally, corporately. I've sold personally and corporately. I've made every mistake you could possibly make, and I've done a lot of things really well. I've learned a lot from that. Well, when you look at the things that have happened since the pandemic started, like it used to be, this bulletproof thing you sell, you had the multiple, and you've got equity, and you're going to get like this big payout, all that kind of stuff. Well, then you throw a monkey wrench into it. 1 in 100-year global health crisis, and then you throw in some mismanagement, then you maybe throw in some greed. And a lot of these groups got out in front of those skis. They took on too much debt, and all of a sudden, cash flow got cut off for ten weeks. And when you get upside down like that, bad things tend to happen. And so you've seen it as much as I have over the last five years, there have been a lot of situations where these PE-backed DSOs have fallen flat on their face and have lost millions. These are things that are devastating doctors, things that are changing the trajectory of their lives or their families' lives, and they had no control over it. They had no voice. They had no control. It was all controlled by the Wall Street type. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Look, man, like everybody, I think has good intentions, but sometimes we're not aligned in terms of the direction, and how you go about being successful, and what I have found, even the best of them, they're not always properly aligned. Me, on the other hand, you and I, we're dentists. We've been there. We've done that with our blood, sweat, and tears. We have grown businesses, and we know how to do that, and we know that the relationship capital. The people are the most critical part of that equation. And, unfortunately, very often, I have seen, and it's not always this way, but too often, people are looked at as expendable. They're just another expense on the spreadsheet. And to me, that relationship capital is everything. Whether you're talking about the relationship with the dentist, the office manager, the hygienist, the assistant, it doesn't matter. Like the longer they've been there and the better they are at what they do, the more important they are to your business. And so anyway, now I'm partnering with doctors, and I have started a doctor-owned and operated group that is on the same page. Like, I know where you're at. I know what your concerns are. I know what you need, and I'm not going to come in and screw it up. We're going to keep doing what you've done to be successful. Now, there are things that you can do to scale and centralize that make things easier and better. But guess what? You do not mess around with that secret sauce. You keep things rolling, and then you're additive rather than subtractive, if that makes sense.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So you said a doctor-owned partnership model, right? What does that entail? So just somebody coming off the street like a layman, they go like, hey, you know what? I have an office and I'm hearing your podcast. What is it that you exactly do? And what are you bringing to the table? And what is the doctor partner bringing to the table?

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Well, we're forming a real partnership where we work together for the betterment of the practice, and the team, and the patients. We're properly aligned in that. We both recognize that practices need constant investment. You can't absolutely decline because you're trying to increase your EBITDA number. You increase your EBITDA number by growing the top line. You don't. Look, we all want to save cut down on our overhead, and stuff like that. That's fine as long as you're not counting paper clips every day. And I find that too often in the corporate world, All they look at is that maybe 1% or 2% they can shave off the bottom to maybe grow EBITDA a little bit. But if you do that at the expense of the top line, guess what? You're shooting yourself in the foot. And you know how many times I've seen that in the corporate world. Take a $36 million dollar group, and within two years, you've run it down to a $27 million dental group because you're forcing stuff down their throats as opposed to saying, all right, man, you got the formula. Things are going well. Every practice is a little different. Let's just keep rolling with that and let's communicate. Let's be partners and figure out how can we take it to the next level, as opposed to saying, hey man, I know you've done this well, but I'm smarter than you, and I'm just going to start doing this. I'm all about being collaborative. Let's grow the top line and save where we can. Economies of scale, it's a thing, but don't focus all of your attention on every paperclip or freaking glove. If you're used to wearing the same textured grip gloves your entire career and you love it. You got that feel. And corporate comes in and says, oh no, hey, I'm sorry you got to use these gloves because we're going to save $2,000 a year. Are you freaking kidding me? Now, how many things are going to slip out of my hand? You know how that can compromise care? Can you? You know how much that's going to piss me off and make me a lot less motivated? Do you know that when you start to cut costs and cut corners and all these other little areas, the team morale goes down? And guess what? This day and age, as well as I do, it is hard to recruit and retain top talent. And when you have top talent, they are priceless, man. You take care of them. You make sure your culture is on point because everybody needs money. It's important. But that culture and the feeling of appreciation that you're a part of something special, a part of a team and has some ownership in that process. You're going to stay forever, and you're going to produce. So that's what I'm all about 100%.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, would you say that is probably the biggest mistakes a lot of people make when they buy or sell?

Dr. Jim Arnold:
I think so. You know.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Changing the culture and changing the systems.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Yeah, absolutely. And so if I'm a selling doctor, obviously, when you build something, it's your life's work. You want to get maximum value for it, no doubt about it. That having been said, you better choose your partner just as carefully because you may get more money over here. But if they're a terrible partner and you're miserable, and they run it into the ground, guess what? That wasn't a good decision. And so I think there are a lot of things that you have to balance as a seller and say, look, here's a scenario where I love this partner. We're going to vibe like we're going to grow together. It's going to be really awesome. And if you can get the most money and have the right partner, then you're really hitting on all cylinders. And that's honestly that's what I'm creating right now. Because look, man, PE brings a lot of value to the table sometimes, but I would rather for the doctors to get the big payouts and not the PE, because even my friends, they're amazing and their integrity and they create value and I love them. We're still really good friends, but most of these groups, at the end of the day, like they are going to make 80% of the money for their investors, and that's what they do. And that's awesome. But I would prefer a situation where 80% or 100% stays with the dentist and their teams, as opposed to having to dole it all out to Wall Street.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, 100%. Like, I look at it both ways, right? I don't see anything wrong with those PE groups. I don't see anything wrong with the dentist. They both have their own systems and own models. And yeah, of course, the PE has to make money for the investors because, eventually, that's exactly where the money is coming from, capital injection into the business. So I don't see any problems with that. But what I do see is like the dentist needs to stand, the ground needs to know the patient is sacred and just continue that path and have some sort of a marriage or a compromise, whatever you want to call it, between those two. Nothing wrong with profit.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Yeah, no I agree. Look, you got to have it all. You gotta be a profitable business because then you can take better care of your patients.

Dr. Noel Liu:
100%.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
You upgrade your equipment. You can replace things when they need to be replaced. You can bring in new technology. You can get training. You can pay your superstar team well, right? All of that. But if you're not profitable, you can't do any of that, right?

Dr. Noel Liu:
100%. And that is one of the things that I really want to nail it down in people's head is like, profit is not bad. You need profit to make your pie bigger. So this way we can have more people enjoying the pie. And like you said, paying your top people, paying them well. Sorry. Without profit, you're not doing that.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Yeah, exactly. It's your responsibility to be profitable because you will be a better dentist. You will have a better practice, you'll have a better team, and your patients are going to get a better product from you. Oh, and by the way, you can take care of your family. How many? Are there who are working? They're freaking working like dogs and doing stuff they're not very good at. Whether it is that business or the communication or the leadership. And that's okay. Look, we all have different skill sets and we all have different interests. But if you're that guy or woman who is working tirelessly around the clock to do all this stuff and you're miserable, and guess what? You're not making enough money. Well, it's time to make a change. And that change may be going to a private equity backed DSO because there are some good ones out there. They have their act together. They're doing things right. They're well aligned with the doctors and teams and that's like really commendable. And a lot of times, you're more comfortable in a doctor-to-doctor transaction where we like really get each other, and we're properly aligned. And I talked a little bit earlier about how sometimes that alignment can be a little bit off where you're trying to shave like half a percent off the bottom, instead of figuring out how to grow the top with the people that you have. And when you're on a 3 to 5-year cycle, like a lot of times they want to aggregate. Aggregate, aggregate, and then sell for a better multiple. That's awesome. And everybody can do really well with that. What sometimes gets lost in the shuffle is that investment into the practice, because, oh man, we can't invest $100,000 into this thing that will make us more money because we don't have enough years to really have that pay-off. And so $100,000 now is going to cost us $1 million or $1.5 million when we do a recap. But, if you're in it for the long haul, like, I'm not going to grow this for 3 to 5 years and flip it. This is long-term because you and I both know dental practices are very profitable when run properly with the right team, run properly. So why not aggregate build something really special, centralize some of the things doctors don't want to do, but then just keep going with it so you're not on that compressed time period. If you're on a longer time period, then you're properly aligned, and you'll continue to invest for growth indefinitely.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And that brings the next point where many of our colleagues, they have problems with its communication and leadership, right? These are the two aspects I want you to talk a little bit about leading a team, communicating their vision to the team, having that leadership role, and then how do they take all that and balance it with their family. So, like a work-life balance.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Man, you just asked all the right questions man. Because when it comes to leadership, because.

Dr. Noel Liu:
They're all interrelated, right? You cannot just look at one in a vacuum. You have to put them all into perspective.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
You really do. And leadership does come down to having a very clear vision. Too often, people just aren't clear in what they want to do or where they want to go. And if you want to be a leader, you better get really clear about that. That doesn't mean that you might not change course at some point because the situation changes. Or maybe this didn't work the way you wanted it to. Whatever. But start with a clear vision, and then you've got to be able to communicate that clear vision to your team. And guess what? If you don't have a great team that's on the same page with you sharing that same vision, then you're never going to make it because we can't do it by ourselves. As a young dentist, I was a micromanager. I think, like a lot of dentists tend to be. But when I figured out that if you get the right people, you put them in the right position, and you give them all the tools to be successful. Holy cow. Sky is the limit. And then you're in a situation where you can delegate, but eventually, get to the point where you can delegate and trust. Because if the trust isn't there, you could yeah, you could have a list of things, hey, do this and pass it all off and create free time for yourself. But if you don't trust them, if you haven't equipped them to be successful with what you've delegated to them, then number one, it's not going to get done the right way. Number two, they're going to catch that you don't really trust them, and they're not going to be all in. And number three, you're just not going to go where you want to go. So when it comes to balance, then you got to have that team. You got to have people you can delegate to and trust. But you also, I think when your priority is your family as a father, like, it's really easy to get wrapped up in what we're doing and justify it like, hey man, this is about my family. I'm building for my family; I'm building for my family. But if you have that mentality too long, you're going to miss out on stuff. And guess what? Maybe you're making the money, but you're not giving them what they need, which is really you. And so you got to block off time and prioritize, because you and I both know you can work 24 hours a day easily. There's plenty of work to do. There's always plenty of work to do, but you can't do it at the expense of the people who are most important. So carve out that time to say, this is family time, and I'm not going to touch anything else. But you got to have that team in place, which comes down to leadership, so that you have the flexibility to do that. And then the last piece of that personal growth, like whatever it is, man, grow and learn. Always have a humble heart and know that you can always be better, do better, and invest in yourself. And I think you're going to be in a good place.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You nailed it, my friend. You nailed it. One of the problems that I see with many people, it's that scarcity mindset not willing to invest in the teams, not willing to invest in themselves. And that's an issue that we see all the time.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
It is.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So I just need a last nugget from you. You said about personal growth. How does somebody recognize something like this and say like, hey, you know what, I'm going to go ahead and personally grow myself first, get my mindset opened up, understand the value of the human life value? And because without that, Jim, you agree that it's not going to change. They will not be able to delegate. They will not be able to invest in themselves. Let's talk about the mindset aspect. What is so important, what needs to change, and how do they recognize it?

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Gosh, that's a $1 million question. It comes down to, I think, at the start, about self-awareness. If you're not self-aware, then oftentimes, you won't see the areas where you need growth. And if you don't see it, then you're not going to know where to seek it out or when to seek it out. And let's be honest, like 90% of people probably, maybe even higher, are just happy where they are, and that's fine. Like you, just the status quo is good enough. That's great. Good for you. But guys like you and me, like we've never been happy with the status quo. We never want to be just a dentist, or just an athlete, or just a business owner. Like we want to excel and do the things at a higher level. And so if that is your mentality, then you have the self-awareness to say, here's where I'm maybe falling short a little bit. Here's where I can elevate my game a little bit, and then it goes right back to mentorship and figuring out where you can get that. And then it comes down to that abundance mindset where, like, hey man, I'm going to invest in myself. I'm going to pay for a shortcut to get to where I want to be. And so you just got to find that right mentor, that right group, get into it, be all in, and just fly because sky is the limit when you do have that abundance mentality.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Awesome, awesome. So Jim my friend, what do you see yourself in the future? What's next for you and your ventures?

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Wow, that is a great question. In here, and now I'm still building both. We're in that building mode, which is exciting. It's an exciting place to be because there's always a new challenge, and there's always something cool that opens up and a new opportunity here and there and everywhere for me. One of the biggest things is really to stay focused on the main thing. And so for me right now, as I grow Luxury Dental Retreats and segue more into like events and things like that. That's something I'm excited about because I think that's something that's sustainable long term. I think that is an ecosystem where I can continue to create growth and value for dentists for a long time, and that just requires having the right people within that ecosystem to help create value. Because, look, I may be good at all of these things at some level, but I'm not necessarily the niche expert. And so I want to continue to attract those niche experts, the best people, to provide the best information to as many dentists as possible because they can get a lot from me, no doubt about it. But if they can get a lot from this guy and this girl and this guy where they're really experts, well then we've got something that can grow to, who knows, we could do whatever we want. And but you know what? It's one day at a time. It's great to have a map and a vision and then just take the steps that you need to take to get to that point. You want to be on the practice side. I'm having fun, man. I'm having great conversations with docs, and I'm about to make a few acquisitions. And I know that these are docs that I want to partner with. We're on the same page, we've got the right vibe, and we're rowing in the same direction. And so, I'm excited about that. Like just having these long-term relationships, these long-term partnerships, we're on the same page and we're all about growth. And it's all about everybody winning. Because if anybody loses, everybody loses. And so transparency, authenticity, like sharing your gifts with other people, that's where real value and real joy comes for me. And so I'm excited about the next 20 years doing exactly that.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And you will just do just great. I mean, with your personality and your attitude, that's what's going to take you to a winning level.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
I appreciate it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Transparency and wind. Love it, love it. So we're going to land the plane here. LuxuryDentalRetreats.com. Is that right, Jim?

Dr. Jim Arnold:
You got it 100%.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And then how do people find you? Besides the website.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
You know what? People can text me. I'm just going to throw out my cell phone number. Oh, wow. And anybody can text me and set up a call, (219) 241-4698, or email is easy too, D R Arnold, DrArnold@SmilesbyArnold.com. I'm pretty good at responding both ways. And if somebody wants to have a conversation. Hey man, let's get on a Zoom. See where you're at, see where you want to go, and see if I can be that guy to help you get there.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And Jim is also on all the social media platforms, so make sure you look him up. What is it? Jim Arnold and Smiles by Arnold, right?

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Yeah. Those are my two main tags, I guess. I'm pretty active. I probably overshare a little bit, but again, it goes down to that transparency and authenticity. You're never going to see a perfect video from me. You're never going to have a perfect soundbite, but you're going to see me. And if you're a real guy, you want, come on. So hey, man, I really enjoyed the conversation. It's always good to see you. Whether we're having lunch and catching up or catching up like this, where hopefully we have a few listeners out there who get something of value. And hey, man, I just want to let you know I have so much respect for you. I met you in a mastermind four years ago, and man, I was blown away by all the things that you were doing then and now to see the level you're at with the different ventures. I'm really proud of you, man. It's good to see you. And it's good to see you on a different track, developing, creating so much value for so many people. So, it's an honor to have a conversation like this.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks, Jim. You too, my friend. It's like we all have our own roles in this industry to make it better for everybody else. And I feel like if we can do our part, Hard. It's going to change so many lives if everybody does their part. As a matter of fact, I feel like we can change lots of lives.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
100% I agree.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So yeah, Jim, thanks for joining in, man. You know what's great? And we'll definitely be in touch. So Luxury Dental Retreats, and ladies and gentlemen, make sure to like and subscribe, and we are going to be taking off. All right.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Thanks again.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Take care.

Dr. Jim Arnold:
Have a good one.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Dr. Jim Arnold:

Dr. Jim Arnold is the founder of Luxury Dental Retreats, which combines exceptional dental education with luxury travel for growth-oriented dentists. He established a successful multi-practice dental group recognized for outstanding patient care and customer service while leading a high-performance team to drive excellence.

Dr. Arnold served as a clinical instructor with the Hornbrook Group and a board member and advisor for many national dental groups. He has also earned multiple awards and fellowships. Dr. Arnold prioritized continuing education, having invested 250-300 hours annually in clinical, communication, leadership, and operational growth for many years. This commitment resulted in an impressive 31% EBITDA for his practices.

Since his clinical retirement, he has supported fellow dentists and helped many transition their practices to lucrative partnerships.

In addition to his professional achievements, Dr. Arnold is married to Sarah, with whom he has raised four amazing children. The Arnold family enjoys high-end travel and staying in luxury properties worldwide.

His passion for small-group education and creating real value for his colleagues, combined with his love for luxury travel, are his reasons for founding Luxury Dental Retreats. This is an opportunity for dentists to enjoy unique luxury experiences while learning and maximizing their ROI. 

With these events, Dr. Arnold is dedicated to sharing his strategies for practice growth while emphasizing the importance of maintaining work-life balance.

Things You’ll Learn:

  • Scaling a dental practice requires a clear plan, strong leadership, and a willingness to adapt. Dr. Arnold grew from one to three practices by developing teams and shifting from an operator to a leader.
  • Success comes from surrounding yourself with experienced mentors, investing in education, and learning business, leadership, and communication skills often missing from dental school.
  • Growth doesn’t happen by chance; it requires time, effort, and financial investment in learning from those who have already achieved success.
  • Whether growing a practice or joining a partnership, alignment in vision, respect for team members, and a focus on sustainable business practices are crucial for long-term success.
  • A growth mindset, self-awareness, and an abundance mentality enable professionals to invest in themselves, take calculated risks, and achieve higher levels of success.

Resources:

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Podcast

Beyond the Chair: How Leadership Shapes Your Dental Practice

Summary:

Leadership is a journey, not a destination, requiring continuous learning and growth to achieve lasting success. 

In this episode, Keith McLachlan, co-founder and president of Dental Team Finder Group, discusses his journey in the dental industry, from sales at Brasseler USA to his 14 years at Align Technology, highlighting the evolution of Invisalign and its impact on orthodontic practices. Keith shares valuable insights into building a successful business, emphasizing the importance of solving problems and providing value to clients. He details how his company supports dental practices by optimizing their culture, processes, and talent acquisition, ensuring a “triple win” for clients, candidates, and their own firm. Keith also covers the consulting aspect of his work, including advising on commission plans, SOPs, and sales process training for startups. Finally, Keith shares his thoughts on the importance of leadership and culture in a dental practice, and how that helps with talent acquisition and retention.

Tune in and learn how to build a thriving dental practice by focusing on leadership, culture, and strategic talent acquisition!

 

Secure Dental-Keith McLachlan: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental-Keith McLachlan: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental Podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of our Secure Dental podcast, where we bring in many different individuals from both inside and outside our dental industry. And today's podcast is sponsored by our DentVia, which I'm also co-founder of. And basically DentVia is a virtual dental administration assistant virtual company. So what we do is provide back-end staffing to our front desk. We supercharge our managers and take care of all the insurance eligibilities, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, which we all hate to do. So visit them at DentVia.com; www.DentVia.com. Without further ado, I have a very special guest today, Keith McLachlan. Keith is a co-founder and president of Dental Team Finder Group, a dental consulting and talent acquisition firm specializing in helping dental practitioners and dental manufacturers optimize their people, processes, and performance. In addition, Keith also has over 22 years of sales experience and marketing. So without further ado, without taking a thunder away from Keith, I'm going to pass it on to you. Take it away, Keith. It's all yours.

Keith McLachlan:
All right. Thank you, Dr. Liu. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you guys for listening and look forward to sharing a little bit little bit about our story. Dr. Liu and I were just talking about a little bit about me before we recorded here. But I got my start in dental back in 1994, in a sales role. I'm sure you guys are all familiar with Brassler USA. Worked in a field territory sales role and traveled many miles over East Texas, and it was a humble beginnings, but learned a ton. And then in '99, I was approached by a recruiter asking me if I had heard of this company called Invisalign; and I said, Invisa-what? Like many of you probably did for the first time. And I said, Well, I don't know anything about it, but tell me more. He goes, Well, can you get online? Can you get on the internet? I go, Well, I think I can dial up. This is '99, mind you. So I went to their website, checked it out. I was like, well, that's certainly a little more sexy than selling burgers, I'll tell you. So that was a treat, to say the least. So one thing led to another interview and started with the line Technology back in April of 2000. It was a fun ride. I was there for 14 years. I worked in sales and sales leadership. I was on several cross-functional committees, but learned a ton through that experience, just about myself, but also skills that I could apply going forward and still apply today, quite frankly. So in, you know, around 2012, I was starting to get the edge of what do I want to do differently? You know, business ownership always intrigued me because I wanted, I did not mind being a leader where it's like, Hey, my decisions are on me, be it for positive or negative. I get to call the shots. And it wasn't necessarily from an ego standpoint; it was just, I felt like I had a platform, had a message and that I could call people to that and add value to people, because that's one of my cornerstones. That's kind of how I'm built. So in 2014, we just finally made the leap. I was having a conversation with a consultant friend of mine and we went way back, but we were just brainstorming ideas of where we saw. Because all great companies come from a problem solving perspective, what solution can we offer here? We heard a lot about recruiting. You guys are probably rolling your eyes when you hear that. You know, just trying to find good people, it is the bane of existence for any business owner, but for dental business owners, it's one of the areas that's universally challenging. So we thought, okay, what's the solution? And it's gone through a few iterations. You know, we thought, Oh, it's a dental exclusive website. Yeah, yeah, that's the answer. It's like, no, that's not what they want. They want somebody to bet and screen. So we started morphing into full service, typical recruiting. But then our audience, at least our searches changed from being primarily auxiliary team members, front-office, back-office operations to more clinicians, associate dentist, a specialist. But then also the three categories we work in today are clinical, which are the doctors; sales, marketing, we call those commercial roles for manufacturers primarily; and then we also work on the labs from bench roles up to executive roles and all points in between. So that's really kind of the three buckets of our business. So we were founded in 2014. We celebrated ten years last year. So this is our 11th year. Yeah. Yeah, I'd love to say it's been, you know, compound growth every year, and every year has been a good year. But that's just not the case, especially in a recruiting business that is so far from up and to the right. It's more like a hold on white knuckles roller coaster. It's going to go up, and it's going to go down just by the seasonality, right? You can imagine the holidays are slow. And so you guys didn't come to hear about that. But yeah. So that's a little bit about our story. What do we also do besides recruiting. So many times I work with startup clients, not so much on the provider side, but companies, small companies that are looking to get their start and hire their first employees. So I'll help them just based on my experience in sales and operations, kind of help them build a commission plan, SOPs, standard operating procedures sales process. We've done sales process training. So those are some of the other things that we do to add value in the dental community. I like to say I'm a dental person first and a recruiter second. There's a distance there because we add value in many ways, not simply on just being a talent acquisition or recruiting firm. So, you know, just.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You guys celebrated your ten years. That says a lot because majority of the businesses in the United States, when I see a trend, half of them shut down in like five years. And then ten-year mark, I mean, that's a different ballgame altogether. And for you guys to be in that league, it says a lot. That's like adding credibility to exactly what your leadership, your culture, and your, you know, the whole operation side of things are operating at probably like full capacity, I mean, full cylinders, right? Because very few businesses, they touch that ten-year mark. So congratulations.

Keith McLachlan:
Thank you very much. Yeah. A good friend of mine, Mary Sawtelle, who runs Mary's list, she's primarily on the orthodontic side. But Mary said to me, one year, she goes, Just eke out, get to five years, just get to five years. And not that the seas part, and you'll never have any issues. But she's like, It's a big deal, Keith. And you'll start to get momentum. And she was right. So thank you, Mary. Appreciate that.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Oh excellent. Excellent. So let's go back to, I'm going to take you back in time a little bit with your Align years. Right?

Keith McLachlan:
Yes, yes.

Dr. Noel Liu:
When you were with Invisalign, number one how long were you there for? What was the experience like? What did you bring from that experience over to your business?

Keith McLachlan:
Oh, wow. Wow. So many aha's in there. So the biggest thing when we started my own experience in coming from Brasseler, which is, you know, it's for all intents a transactional sale. I mean, I'm not having to sell a concept or a new idea, but we had some new products that we had to pitch a little bit. But coming to Align, I was thinking as a consumer, not as a provider, I was thinking, this is a no-brainer idea. You have to be an idiot not to get it, right? As a consumer, what I didn't appreciate is you have to actually have the clinical results and actually do what you say you're going to do, at least from a treatment standpoint, because with the digital setup looks great, it looks awesome. The challenge was not all of the clinical results were mirroring that digital result. So that was one. And we were dealing with orthodontic specialists only and just to start. We didn't really start getting into the GP world until 2002. And so I was thinking, Hey doc, how many do you want to just convert your entire practice? And they're like, Oh, hold on.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So you're saying that Invisalign was primarily orthodontist-only when they started?

Keith McLachlan:
It was, it was. We were working with specialists only. Yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Wow. I didn't know that.

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Okay. That's good info.

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah, it was ortho-exclusive because not the founders so much. Because Kelsey and Zia, they were MBA graduates, you know, very, very smart people. They weren't necessarily dental insiders, but Joe Breeland, who was the original VP of sales, came from the ortho background. He had worked in traditional ortho. So he knew that if we take this product, and that was the biggest fear of most of the specialists, that he knew, that if we took this product to the GPs, we would lose all credibility with the orthodontic community. So he was very sensitive to that. And he's like, Listen, we're only going to work with orthodontic specialists. And I think in 2002, there was a class action lawsuit which essentially said, You can't do that. You can't segment your market and sell only to one channel. So again, the orthodontic community was hands up, Yeah, okay, this is exactly what we knew was going to happen. And so the big AHA's were the going from a kind of a transactional product to an idea. Many orthodontists were like, It'll never work. You hear it all over the board. So some were like, I get it, I see it. But the product was not ready for prime time. Anybody that worked back in that day knows that you had to learn how to develop a virtual treatment plan such that you would get the aligners, that would get you the good result. Whereas, it wasn't mapping perfectly digital result to clinical result. So there was some retooling that had to happen around the mid 2000s, 2006, 2007 or so, and then they started actually going, Okay, why aren't we getting this? We need to create some movements. We need to create some predictability. We need to create some different attachment sizes such that we can get the movements that. So when that started happening, we had alienated a lot of the orthodontists. But GPs were trending up because they weren't quite as particular about the results. Not to say that they didn't get good results, it's just that they were like, Oh, well, just prove what you sent me; okay, let's do this. But the orthodontists are a little more skeptical. So, and in 2007, John Morton came, and then things really changed. We got the orthodontists back on board and really had a product that is clinically superior today.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So they were the pioneers basically to get that started. So when did Align Technologies, when did these guys actually said, Okay, everybody else can do it? I'm sure they had a patent that they kind of locked themselves up right for a while.

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah. So they were founded in '98. They started doing commercial business in, I think it was October of '99 was when they shipped their first cases. So the intellectual property was all secured. The biggest ones, I mean, we had so many, and they never stopped, right? They had 68 by the time we shipped our first case. And the biggest one, the one that really sort of built a moat, was the one that you couldn't have three or more successive movements in one treatment plan. That was the one that eliminated anybody from being able to be a viable competitor.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Got it. Got it. Okay. Nice. Good to know.

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah. You saw companies coming up, Oh, you can order three and then you can order another three. Like AOA labs. And so you saw companies just kind of trying to work around that. But it was very difficult. So 2017 is when we started to see companies getting traction. The patents were expiring. But then again, new patents were in place. So every time they would come up with a new technology, they would patent it. So you can't do exactly what Invisalign does. But there are getting close. The disparities, the gap is closing for sure.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So you were with Invisalign, what; about ten years or more?

Keith McLachlan:
14.

Dr. Noel Liu:
14. Wow!

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah. 14. Yeah. Started in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So what has shaped in those 14 years that you brought over to your business. What were some of the pros and cons?

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah. Well, I liken the sales role at Align to be consultantesque. Now, we represented a product, but in many cases, we were advising offices on closing cases; how to maximize, you know, your presentations to actually your treatment accepted. We were advising on third-party financing because we had partnerships, and we were sitting chairside, I kid you not. We would sit chairside and help offices do these full-mouth PBS Impressions before the scanning technology was there. So we were like a whole office consultant. Now, we did advise on other procedures, but yeah, we were helping offices, especially general offices, that didn't have any orthodontic treatment experience or production to really help them add another incremental production service to their patient population. So that was pretty amazing. And the orthodontists who really understood early on the marketing potential behind it, because there were, David Boskin is an orthodontist in the Bay area and one of the early, early guys who really, really understood that, Hey, if I can be an advisor to these general dentists in my area, they will do the easy cases, I can do the tough cases. So he really got it early on, and he figured out how to set up his clinics in a way that he could get that clinical result. So yeah.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, you know, you touched a very important point because this is the sole pipeline for a lot of the practitioners, as well as offices and dentists. Because we, as dentists, we are so focused on the clinical that we forget everything else. You touched a good point that you were chairside helping them close cases, because ultimately, if you're not closing, you're not treating. Plain and simple. And the fact that a lot of people, they need to understand that part is the sales process need to be a robust pipeline process. I mean that is one of those I would say bread and butter for every single practice doing Invisalign implants, you name it. Because if that's not happening, nothing is happening on the middle or the back end.

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah. So we would help create kind of a process, like what is our, how do we message patients in the hygiene chair? How do we message patients that are restorative patients? And teaching about the benefits of hygiene to periodontal health and that combination, that systemic link there. And patients, you know, say, Hey, we can reduce less tooth structure if we do alignment before we do the restoration. So there were so many little protocols that we had helped them. Ahh, okay. I see now how I can message this to patients. So it really is.

Dr. Noel Liu:
... what your company is doing right now with consulting?

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah, it was not so much in that vein. Essentially, it's more on, okay, before you get us to help you recruit, how do we optimize your culture? How do we, in fact, I'm working on a book right now, and this is not a shameless plug, but I'm working on a book where I'm like, Make sure you plug these holes, make sure your back door is not bigger than your front door, where your team's leaving faster than you can get them in. Because while we love the business that we get from recruiting, we don't want to see you turn over good team members, right? So we just, okay, so does this person have a job description? Does this person know what their job looks like? Are they meeting expectations. Are they average or are they exceeding expectations? Are they not? So let's have some system, a handbook, whatever we need to do to have all the descriptions and what makes performance standards or what is doing my job look like. So all those little. That's how we usually advise our provider partners.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So you're doing some preliminary work prior to getting them the talent because if the talent comes in they're going to be out the back door.

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah. Exactly right. That's exactly right. And we'll check reviews. Yeah. We'll check Glassdoor, which is Glassdoor, is a review platform for current and former employees to leave feedback on their employers. So that's kind of the, it's instead of Google reviews which are patients, right, or consumers, this is a platform for employees to leave feedback.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And when you do this consultant how important is leadership in that culture? And what are your thoughts on that, and what you want to share with that part?

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah, no, it's central. And so a lot of listeners that are dental business owners are like, Oh gosh! One more thing. I'm not saying necessarily that it has to be the doctor. If that's not your strong suit, and for a lot of you, it may not be, but have somebody that is your person who sets the tone, creates the culture, and manages the execution of what you want to see in your practice. From a what do we want new patients to think of us? What do we want our old patients to think of us? What do we want to be known for? What's our mission? What's our vision? And have that person essentially execute what you want to see. So it doesn't have to be the doctor. That's one thing they don't necessarily have to do, but they have to give somebody. They have to put authority into somebody that can do that for them.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So in your bio, you mentioned something about leadership is not a destination, right? It's a journey. Explain a little bit about that.

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah. Well, because I liken it to the practice of dentistry, right? They call it practice for a reason. You're never ultimately going to perfect; you're going to practice. So leadership is much the same way. If you say, Hey, I've arrived, you see that every day in people that have these tremendous egos, that there's so much damage in their wake because of their ego. And I think that that's an example of somebody who feels like they've arrived, and there's nothing else they can learn. There's nothing else they can do. They have made it. I think that gets you to an unhealthy place. So for me, it's a daily investment, or it's just an investment in general. And continuing to learn and grow and have that ideal in place. And you may not quite get there, but that's okay. It's about the journey, not about the destination.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You know, you and I, we share the same mindset based on the fact that as we age and as we get wiser, we need to start believing in ourselves like increasing the lid, which John Maxwell puts it so well in the Law of the Lids. Right? Like you're not going to get a talent coming to work for you if your belief lid is really low, your leadership lid is really low. So like someone, and I'm sure you see that a lot, someone operating at a level four or level five, they're not getting a level-eight or level-nine talent coming to work for them. And I think that's kind of resonates with when you said about it's a journey, it's not a destination. I love it.

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah, absolutely. And the beauty is that leaders aren't born; they are made. And it's not like, Oh, well, you were just born. No, that's not it at all. I can't say that my birthright was leadership.

Dr. Noel Liu:
How would they know, right?

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah, it's something that I chose and continue to choose to do. So therefore, I feel the need to progress and learn and develop.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, in a nutshell, if I were to were to ask you in an elevator, right, Keith, what is it that you do? I mean, you have so much areas of expertise. If I were to ask you and you put it in a nutshell, and I come to you like, Hey, I'm a new dentist, I just opened up my practice. What is it that you do that you can help me out with?

Keith McLachlan:
Well, I know it's going to sound generic, but because John Maxwell is one of my favorite authors too, I've adopted his slogan. I add value to people. Now, I get consistently, people will call me, maybe they're a dental assistant, and they're like, Hey, you know, I want to get into sales one day. I was like, Okay, where are you at right now? Well, I'm assisting, but gosh, I really want to see salespeople in our office. I feel like I can do that too. So I kind of say, Okay, well, what's going to take you, get you from here to there? What does that look like? So I'll spend time with somebody like that. It doesn't have to be somebody that I directly benefit from. You know, to me, to take another John Maxwell quote, If you help enough people get where they want to go, you get where you want to go. So to answer your question about the quick pitch, I would say, Oh, what do I do, or what do I do for a living? I usually try to make them go, Oh yeah, of course, I meant what do you do for a living. I tell people, Well, I work in recruiting. I'm a dental person that works in recruiting. Dental person; what does that mean? I've been in the dental industry for 30 years, so I'm sort of a dental enthusiast. So I have a firm where we help a place, dental people. Oh, okay. So you're a recruiter. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. So that what we do, but we do add value in many ways, is kind of how I just expand upon that a little bit.

Dr. Noel Liu:
That's great. The way I understand it is, and I'm sure many of the audience would understand, is like you're a recruiter in the central zone, but then you do the preliminary and you do the post-op. Like how you call it in clinical terms. Right?

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah. The poster. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I was just in an oral surgeon's office yesterday, and we were talking about consult surgery post-op.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And follow ups.

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah. And follow ups. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, we liked it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
It was a great conversation. Anything you would like to add?

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah. Well, obviously, if you want to learn more about Dental Team Finder, look us up on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. We'd be happy to have a conversation again. I hope I can move you from here to there. We like to add value and we do business the right way. We're not here to just, we call it the triple win. You know, we want our clients to win. We want our candidates to win. And we want us to win. So if you want to learn more about us: DentalTeamFinder.com. And hit us up! We've got social media and you can send us a message via the website as well. So we'd love to hear from you.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Great. Thanks so much, Keith. So it's Dental Team Finder, just the way it's pronounced, that's the way it's spelled, .com.

Keith McLachlan:
That's correct. Yeah. Without an s. Some people put an s on the end of finders, but it's DentalTeamFinder.com.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it, love it. Well, Keith, it was a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining in today. Like always, there's always room for growth. And I love what you're doing. Keep pushing my friend. And we'll definitely cross paths again.

Keith McLachlan:
Yeah, I look forward to, Dr. Liu. And thanks again for having me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Absolutely. Well, everybody, we're going to land a plane right now. Thanks so much for our guests for joining in. Until our next episode, take care, god bless, and make sure to like and subscribe.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com

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About Keith McLachlan:

With over 25 years in dental industry sales, marketing, and recruiting, Keith McLachlan is a recognized leader in talent acquisition and business development. As Co-Founder & President of Dental Team Finder, he connects top-tier dental professionals with career opportunities, serving practice owners, DSOs, and manufacturers with a people-centric approach 

Keith’s career spans leadership roles in both consumables and device sales, where he has driven growth, developed training programs, and built high-performing teams. His expertise includes executive recruitment, sales strategy, and process optimization. A self-described “Change Agent”, he challenges conventional methods to create innovative, results-driven solutions.

His core values—integrity, leadership, and a can-do attitude—define his approach. Whether launching start-ups, refining sales processes, or mentoring emerging leaders, Keith is committed to setting new industry standards and empowering professionals to thrive.

Things You’ll Learn:

  • Leadership as a Continuous Journey: Understand how leadership is an ongoing process of growth and adaptation, not a fixed destination.
  • Problem-Solving and Value Creation: Learn the importance of solving real problems and providing value to clients as the foundation of building a successful business.
  • Optimizing Dental Practices: Gain insights into how culture, processes, and strategic talent acquisition contribute to a thriving dental practice.
  • Consulting and Sales Strategies: Discover Keith’s approach to advising dental practices on commission plans, standard operating procedures (SOPs), and sales process training.
  • The Role of Leadership and Culture in Talent Retention: Explore how strong leadership and a positive workplace culture are crucial for attracting and retaining top-tier dental talent.

Resources:

Categories
Podcast

Empowering Dental Teams for Long-Term Success

Summary:

What does it take to transform a dental practice from simply surviving to truly thriving?

 

In this episode of the Secure Dental Podcast, Dr. Tarek Aly, owner and co-founder of several dental organizations, talks about bridging the gap between clinical excellence and business acumen in dentistry by implementing standardized systems, strong leadership, and strategic growth for sustainable success. Recognizing the lack of entrepreneurial education in dental school, he pursued an MBA to bridge the gap between clinical excellence and business acumen, emphasizing standardized patient care and efficient systems. His philosophy centers on creating a consistent, high-quality patient experience while empowering teams and implementing structured processes to ensure growth and sustainability. Dr. Aly advocates for a clear mission, vision, and strategic planning, stressing the importance of building strong teams, tracking key performance indicators (KPIs), and securing appropriate financing to scale successfully. Additionally, he highlights the significance of work-life balance, encouraging professionals to define success holistically by nurturing family, social, and financial well-being while pursuing ambitious career goals.

 

Join Dr. Tarek Aly as he shares invaluable insights on bridging the gap between clinical expertise and business success, revealing the key strategies that drive sustainable growth in dentistry.

Secure Dental_Dr. Tarek Aly: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Secure Dental_Dr. Tarek Aly: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Welcome to the Secure Dental podcast. Through conversations with the brightest minds in the dental and business communities, we'll share practical tips you can use to scale your practice and create financial freedom for yourself and your family. My name is Dr. Noel Liu, CEO and Dentist at Secure Dental, and also co-founder of DentVia. I'm your host for the Secure Dental podcast, and I'm so glad you're joining in.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Hey, everyone! Welcome to another episode of our Secure Dental podcast. And today, we have a very special treat here, and we have Dr. Tarek Aly. He is a periodontist or was a periodontist. And currently, he is owner and co-founder of several dental organizations. So, without me stealing any of the thunder from him, I will let him introduce, and give a brief background about where he came from, what is he doing, and the whole nine yards in between. So, Dr. Aly, go ahead. The floor is yours.

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Well, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are. First of all, I am very grateful to be on your lovely and insightful podcast. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. My name is Tarek Aly, and I used to be a periodontist in a previous life and then I went to rehab and recovered. I'm joking. I enjoyed the dental world. It started with my parents wanting me to be a doctor like them. And if you know anything about Egyptian parents, you don't negotiate with them. They say you got to be a doctor, and you say, I, captain, I will be a doctor. And then later I really fell in love with the profession. It's such an amazing profession. You make a difference in people's lives every day. I wasn't a big fan of the clinical world. I was more in love with the marriage between the business and the clinical, how to make an impact in so many people's lives and not just the patients you see every day. So, I started building and buying dental practices. I co-own about 94 dental offices between multiple DSOs built and bought multiple practices over the years. I'm also a coach, and I'm very involved in the DSO space. You'll see some of my work out there, and I'm very grateful to be here with you guys.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it. So, when did this dental journey of yours start? Let's take us back in time. When? Before pre-dental school.

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Yeah. So it started actually in Egypt. I grew up in Egypt, and I went to dental school in Egypt. And I realized how much of a difference we actually do as dentists in people's lives. It's not just a healthy smile. It's a lot more than that. And that that difference is what you make in people's lives have really impacted me to a deeper core, which I made it a mission to impact as many lives as I possibly can. And that's where the dental journey started.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Got it. So you were a dentist in Egypt then, before you came here, correct?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
That's right. Yes. I was a dentist in Egypt first, and then I came here. And after I've done my board exams and all the fun stuff, I started the business journey after an MBA, and a CVA, and a bunch of useless business degrees. I love that marriage between business and dentistry. It was such a lovely journey.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So you came here, and then you went to dental school again, correct?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Yes, I came here, did my board exams, and then I realized, is this really what I want to do is to be in the chair? I thought it definitely makes a difference, to be more impactful, to impact a lot more lives than just the patients you see every day. As a dentist, you can impact ten to 20 to 50 patients a day. But as a, scaling up your business and scaling up your dental practice or practices, you can impact 200, 500, 2000 patients a day.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it, love it. So, from dental school, you became a periodontist. And then from there, what made you decide at that time that, hey, you want to get an MBA done, and then you want to do the business side of dentistry? How long into the clinical world? Like you would say, roughly about, what, a few years, a decade?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Yeah. About 4 or 5 years is when I realized that we are lacking so much in entrepreneurship coming out of dental school. Oh, they teach you how to be an amazing clinician, but you really don't know how to run a business. You don't know how to read a PNL; you don't know how to do marketing. You don't know how to actually be a leader in your organization. In dental school, you're working solo, impacting that specific patient, but you don't know how to work with assistants. You don't know how to work with front office. You don't know how insurances work. You don't know the holistic approach. So, I realized that there's so much to learn, and we only know a sliver of it.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So is that why you went and did your MBA after you became a dentist, or was it, were you done it before?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Yes. I was always a big fan of business and understanding the bigger picture. But then I realized that we are so defective in the business world and the dental community. And that's when I thought, hey, what about an MBA?

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it. So tell me something real quick. You said something about scaling, right? And we're going to fast forward into a little bit about the current situation. Why scale? I mean, like one of the aspects, you said that yes, you want to affect patients' lives, right? But you got to have a bigger why of taking up so much challenges and so many of those entrepreneurial, sleepless nights. Why scale, in your opinion?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
So, scaling, there's a lot more aspects to providing quality of care. When you are in your practice, seeing patients every day, I can guarantee you that the patients have different experiences, different times of the day, and different days of the week. Not every patient that walks in your door has the same exact experience. Monday morning patient could have a different experience than the Friday afternoon patient. And that comes because of a lot of other factors like your moods, your front office person's mood, your dental assistant, how to fight this morning with their spouse, so their patient experience is different. So, how to create consistent patient experience on a scale for every single patient? You treat every patient like they're president of this country. You treat every single patient like your parents or your family members that are coming, and you want them to feel proud of you, the work that you're doing. So you treat every patient like extreme VIP. How to create that experience on a bigger version for every patient. That's what scaling is about.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And what is the mindset behind it? Like when you are doing something like that, the task is so big at hand that it really becomes almost people think in their minds like, hey, it's so impossible. I can do it in a single practice. But how do I replicate into 94 practices?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
It's definitely hard. I'm sure you've heard the term standard of care. Well, big newsflash, standard of care is never standard. There's always these discrepancies. Do you know that 150,000 Americans die each year in surgeries? And do you know that 75,000 of them, 50% of them die because of avoidable human errors? Things like someone didn't wash their hands properly, or they brought the wrong blood type, or they didn't do an allergy test before. So we think we do the same. That's why we have checklists and systems and processes, and that's why industries like aviation and construction have a very high accuracy rate because they have standardization. So it is hard, but it's doable. We can learn from other industries. And I can guarantee you today, if you do mystery shopping and go to any dental office, not just one location or 5 or 15 or 20, even in just one small practice. Standard of care is not standard, and we have to work constantly, day in, day out, to standardize that care.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You said you're a pilot, too, right?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Yes, I fly, and I love aviation. It's a miracle in our time.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Who would know better than you what a checklist would be, correct.

Dr. Tarek Aly:
I love checklists; I have checklists for everything. Yes.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, I love it, I love it. So, in terms of mindset, now I want to get a little bit deeper in your head when you are managing these practices. Number one, like a lot of people ask, is when they're coming out of dental school. They're like, hey, I want to I want to open up a DSO, and I want to do like how the DSOs are doing. I want to own multiple practices. What's your experience and your take for guys like these that you know, who just want to rush out of school and just get into dentistry and not having anything in terms of business, right? And they just want to open up practices. What is the mindset behind you that what you did in your experience and what would you tell for a younger generation that wants to come out and do the same thing?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Well, first of all, we have to celebrate that ambition. A lot of times, I see leaders in the community putting down these thoughts and saying, hey, you can't do it, or it's hard, or it's doable. The ambition is admirable. Let's keep that fire going. First step is the mindset. Then second is it's okay to realize that we are defective. A lot of times I look in the mirror and I say, you suck and it's okay to suck. It's fine. We don't have to know everything. We're definitely don't know everything. And it's okay to suck. But what's not okay is to keep sucking and to not improve, right? So, step one, the mindset. Let's have that ambitious, optimistic, I-can-do attitude. Step two is it's okay to realize we are defective. There are so many things we don't know that we need to know. And then let's say you want to start a DSO or you want to want to start a business. First ever step you need to do is the mission, the strategy, the mission, vision, core values, objectives, and goals. That's the first step. Why do you want to do this? How are you going to do this? What's your core values? What are your objectives? Objectives can be like, hey, I want to be the best employer in town, or I want to see that many specialties, or I want to serve this many patients, or I want to have $10 million when I buy the term by the time I turn this old. So, let's set this clear. And I know it sounds cliche and everybody talks about, oh, you got to have your mission. It is very essential and a key component. Step one: mission, vision, core values, objectives, and goals. Step two, well, you got to have the know how to do that right. So, we have to create processes and systems. What am I going to do? What's the patient experience going to look like? Do you have a patient experience checklist? When a patient walks in the door, do you have a checklist that tells you exactly what you're going to be doing? Do you have a team member checklist for every single team member to tell them what to do? Do you have your KPIs and all the metrics to assess the health of your systems and processes? Step three: build a strong team. You're not alone. We're never going to do everything. You have to have a strong team even stronger than you are. A good leader has a stronger team than even themselves. Then five, so mission, vision, objectives and goals, systems and processes and standardizing them, building a strong team, track the KPIs, and then, secure financing. Because remember, it's not going to fund itself, right? You're going to have to fund it somehow. It's not we don't live in a dream world. We live in reality. And if you don't have the money to fund it, well, guess what? It's just going to be an idea in your head, and you will live and die with that idea without it being materialized.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So for funding, what is the best strategy? Like, there are so many avenues out there, right? And number one, everybody picks bank debt. First and foremost, would you ever decide into doing like a fundraising or maybe capital raising or something along those lines where you get like some equity firm involved, or would you just strictly stick with friends and family and banks?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
So there's no right or wrong answer here. The answer, it depends. So if you, let's say, you and I are going to start a DSO together to have ten locations with five different specialties in two different states, we're going to approach funding completely different than if we're going to do one location, let it grow and prosper, and then build the second location, or buy it and let it grow and prosper and so forth. You can do self-funding. You could do bank funding, you can do private equity. All that depends on the mission. For first-timers, those who are starting fresh work for a few years as an associate, build some cash reserves, learn the know-how, work on your mission and all the systems and KPIs. And then you can go to the bank, and they will gladly lend you based on your debt to income ratio and all that fun stuff. Your covenants.

Dr. Noel Liu:
How is one practice versus like having a mindset of opening up multiple practices, and why different?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Yeah, so it has to do with your mission. So for me, for example, I wanted to have the highest amount of impact on so many communities in the lowest possible time. I've realized some in some cases, we had patients that didn't even have shoes, and they barely had enough means to come to the practice. And in other cases, they were in high-end communities where they can afford all the treatment. So, I realized that if I'm going to make an impact, I really needed the scale or the volume. That was my mission. The mission is let's impact as many people as we possibly can. Others are different. Some of my friends are more on the higher end stuff. They want to do the big cases, the implants, and all that. Some are more of the transformational thing. I want to take patients from zero to hero. So it depends for scale. To answer your question, I think the most important piece here is once you define the mission and how you're going to do this, how are you going to fund it makes a big difference. So now you may need to go to a private lending. Finding a private equity group or whatever it is private money because they will be less inclined to be sticklers with your covenants and more believing in your mission. It's kind of like.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Selling a dream, right?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
That's right. Yes, they believe in your dream, so they would be more inclined to take the risk with you.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Love it. So as we start our journey, we are first entrepreneurs. We put everything on the line. We spend our last dollar, right? We have those sleepless nights. Then we transitioned to becoming an operator where we are the ones who's treating patients clinically, and we are on the chair. If we're not on the chair, we are not making any cash flow. And then from there, I think about it this way. Like from there, then you would transition to becoming owners, where now we have associates working and then we become owners, right? And from there, I think another transition after that would be becoming investors and being completely out of it. So, with your expertise, is there like a goal or a timeline where one needs to proceed in order to scale? Because many of our dentists, we get stuck into the operational area, and we never seem to get out of it, right? And we are always trying to micromanage every single thing. So, in order for us to scale, there's no way we can be on the chair and managing and doing the whole thing. How would you differentiate that, and how would you set it aside, like with people and processes? What would you do?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Yeah. So, going back to the mission, if my mission is to actually get off the chair and be a CEO of the DSO. Then there's a path to that. And that path, believe it or not, is well-defined. We just have obstacles to towards it, but it's well defined. Let's say my mission is to have five locations within a two-hour radius to serve three different specialties. Certain patient demographic. Certain PPO to cash mix. I have it clear in my head. First, I work as a dentist. I am delivering the care myself. I am very well aware of the micro level of patient care and the macro level, because, at that time, you're in the beginning. When you're 1 or 2 locations, you're still doing almost everything. You're the CEO, you're the clinical director, you're this dentist, and you're the conflict resolution guy. You're everything. And then there's going to be this shift between, it's a paradigm shift between the operator to a business owner. You're still a business owner, and you still have that mentality, but you're distracted. You're working eight hours a day, you're you barely have a life, and your kids are asking, like, hey, why did dad didn't come to the baseball game? So you're all these things, and at some point, you're going to have to make that transition to get off the chair. And the reason they're the biggest obstacle to getting off the chair is financial. Most dentists are high-income earners. They make good money being on the chair. So, to get off the chair now, they go from making X, from being a dentist to making Y, being a business owner, which is 10% to 20% profit from the office. So there's this drop financially. And that's the biggest reason why most dentists don't get off the chair. And believe it or not, there's a program or there's a path to get you off the chair slowly without necessarily impacting your financial well-being.

Dr. Noel Liu:
And that's where I think you say like scaling comes in, that you got to scale at that time.

Dr. Tarek Aly:
If the business is making profits and it's healthy and it's growing, there's going to be a little bit of a dip, but it's not going to be that big of a dip if it's running well. And now you can be a true CEO. So, let me share something real quick about my journey for the fact learning about success. I didn't understand what success means because coming from Egypt in the Eastern world to the Western world, whenever you ask someone in America what constitutes success, why does, why do you think this person is successful? Immediately they're going to start thinking about financial stuff like, oh, cars, houses, whatever it is, right? Because I think that's typically how people perceive success. What I realized is from observing different cultures, there is six factors to life success. There's family life, there's love life. There's health and fitness, mental and physical. There is social life, spiritual life, whether you believe in something or you don't, whether you practice religion or you don't. And there's reasonable financial prosperity in each one of these have KPIs. So we focus a lot on the material financial success and think, this is it, but you're disregarding your, exactly. Your kids are not going to be five anymore. Your wife is not going to wait on you to have that date while you're finishing up with patients, and your friends that are always inviting you to stuff are going to stop inviting you to stuff because you never show up. They call you, and you never show up. So you're like, you know what? I'm not going to call you anymore. So factoring all that, you're going to realize, hey, I really need to get off the chair sooner, I really need. It's okay if I take a little bit of a financial dip, but I'm going to get off the chair, scare my business, and I will have a better holistic life so that I can call success.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, with the multiple tenets that you consulted in the past, what is there a certain kind of personality that they will do that? Or is it something? Is there a trend, or is there like a process that you that anybody can do?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
What I noticed those who are clear on the mission and have the willingness to pursue it, are the ones typically that reach that goal easier. So studies have shown that those who have a goal tend to get closer to it than those who don't. So let's say someone wants to lose weight or want to run a marathon or whatever it is. Those who have the goal set are closer to achieving it than others.

Dr. Noel Liu:
So, when somebody is starting off, should they always have like a location number in mind or like an EBITDA number in mind, or like a revenue number in mind, or should they just start and see where it goes? What would be your take on it?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Absolutely. It costs nothing to dream. It costs nothing to put a goal sheet together. It costs nothing to do a vision board. You can laugh at it in the beginning when you're like, oh no, I'm just, I just graduated. How in the world am I going to have ten locations? Yes, you can make fun of it. You can laugh at it, but that goal sheet you're going to look at five years from now and say, I am so glad I did this. I'm so glad I did this. You tend to overstate or over-believe in your one-year goals, and you tend to understate your five-year goals. You're always going to crush your five-year goals, but most likely, you're going to not meet your one-year goals. So be realistic, but also dream, and you will get closer than those who didn't.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it, I love it, and I got a last question for you, right? It's about a lot of people talk about work-life balance, right? And for me, it's always been like, as we are doing our offices, it's always about work-life priorities at that time. Like what's your priority? So I know a lot of times like you just mentioned, I've neglected my kids, I've neglected my friends. And it's hard, right? And as an entrepreneur, you're, like, always hustling and bustling. What's your take, and what's your advice?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
So, I created a spreadsheet with a checklist and KPIs.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it. You got a checklist for everything.

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Exactly. And I called it Factors of Life success. And I actually put these parameters in there. Family life. What does that look to me? How many times I see my parents? How many times I call my family? Love life. How many dates have you gone with your wife or partner without kids? How many gifts have you given them? And when you look at others, like social life, I have a chess club that I, chess group, aviation group, kayaking group. What I call the deep thinking group or the investor group. So, do you prosper and nourish these relationships and the reasonable financial prosperity, which is how much am I making passive income? How much am I making passive income? What's my borrowing power? What's my net worth? And I and I put the current status versus the ideal case scenario, and with steps how to get there. That was the way I did it. I'm not saying that I highly recommend this to everybody, but it worked for me.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I got to give it to you. You own. You are like co-founder and owning so many different practices. Then you have consulting business, and you are a dad with triplets. It's like when I think about it, I'm like, hey man, I want to grow up just to be like him.

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Well, my triplets are for sale. Buy one, get two, free shipping. I have checklists at home with KPIs and everything.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, exactly. So, what kind of service do you provide as a DSO consultant?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
So one of my businesses is a consulting business. So, we, with Charles Moser, we have this group called the Dental Science Alliance. And it's basically multiple coaches, 20 coaches in multiple disciplines of dentistry. So with a subscription-based.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Is that launched now?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
It is launched, yes, and it's active. And we have, by the way, we have 100% retention rate. So all of our clients are stayed and are happy. Basically, they sign up, and they can they can have sessions with multiple coaches, HR, IT, procurement, compliance, operations, whatever it is. So that's one of them. There's another also company called the DSO Academy, which is an online platform for courses. So they, a member can join in, and they can take courses online. Are they multiple different ones? So there's operations. There is HR. There is things about clinical, just conversion rates and things like that. Closing cases. Also, different experts in the field and the really the quality of the courses are really good, like it's masterclass ...

Dr. Noel Liu:
Nice. Nice. Now, is that something you founded as well?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Yeah. Co-founded with Gary Bird. Gary Bird is my partner. Amazing.

Dr. Noel Liu:
..., right?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Yes.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Yeah. Okay, good.

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Yes. Fantastic human.

Dr. Noel Liu:
No, I love it. I just love the energy that you have and that you bring to the industry. It's such an amazing feeling, like just talking to you. It's like I know you for, like, years, and it's amazing. You've got an amazing personality. So, hey, Tarek, lastly, anything you would like to give, like a tip or a takeaway for our young dentist?

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Yeah. So, mission, vision, core values, objectives, and goals. Always have goals. Dream big. Two is invest in yourself. Be a good leader. There's no way you can get, can grow in life without being a great leader. Work on work-life harmony. I don't call it work-life balance because they're not always equal. Work-life harmony and make sure that you go towards your goal every day. And remember, education is everything. There are some amazing books out there. Go to DSO conferences or go to dental conferences. Read books. Network with those who have gone your path, and you'll do amazing. Believe in yourself.

Dr. Noel Liu:
I love it, I love it. Tarek, if you don't mind, I would love to have you back again like later on in the future.

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Absolutely.

Dr. Noel Liu:
You have so much to share. So amazing. Thank you so much for coming on.

Dr. Tarek Aly:
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Well, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to be landing the plane now. So again, appreciate Tarek coming along out of his busy schedule. And make sure to like and subscribe. And we'll have the link for him for his DSO Academy as well as the Dental Health Alliance. And if you have any questions, hit me up. All right. Thank you very much.

Dr. Noel Liu:
Thanks for tuning in to the Secure Dental Podcast. We hope you found today's podcast inspiring and useful to your practice and financial growth. For show notes, resources, and ways to stay engaged with us, visit us at NoelLiuDDS.com. That's N O E L L I U D D S.com.

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About Dr. Tarek Aly:

Tarek Aly is a versatile professional who combines his background in General Dentistry and Periodontal Surgery with a robust foundation in Management and Leadership.

A graduate in Dentistry from Alexandria University in Egypt, he holds a graduate certificate in Periodontics & Oral Medicine from the same institution and a Diploma in Sales & Marketing from the American University in Cairo. Furthering his education, Tarek earned an MBA from Stephen F. Austin State University in Texas and obtained a CVA certification from the National Association of Certified Valuation Analysts.

With a wealth of experience, Tarek specializes in Dental Support Organizations platform development, Mergers and Acquisitions (M&As), Business Valuation, and Dental Organizations Management. He has authored three publications and is actively working on a book focusing on the management of dental practices and Dental Support Organizations (DSOs).

Currently serving as Partner / COO of Guardian Dentistry Partners (160 dental practice locations), Co-founder of Modern Smiles (10 dental practice locations), a Partner at Community Dental Partners (82 dental practice locations), the Co-founder of OrthoDent Management LLC (12 dental practice locations), and President / Founder of Precision Advisory LLC, Tarek is deeply involved in the leadership and growth of various dental organizations.

In addition to his roles in the dental field, he is a public speaker and an active participant in Toastmasters International.

Things You’ll Learn:

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  • Dentists must embrace both clinical excellence and strong business acumen to build a thriving practice.
  • Effective leadership involves delegating tasks to the right team members, allowing dentists to focus on patient care and strategic growth.
  • Growth requires a clear vision, operational efficiency, and the ability to adapt to industry changes.
  • Leveraging modern tools and systems can streamline workflows, improve patient experience, and enhance profitability.
  • A proactive, growth-oriented mindset is essential for overcoming challenges and achieving long-term sustainability.

Resources: